James R. Davis Administrator
14934 Posts
[Mentor]
Houston, TX
USA Honda
GoldWing 1500
Posted - 06/28/2009 : 4:12 PM
Cash and I spent time today auditing one of Lee Parks' Instructor certification classes. Both she and I also had opportunity to engage Lee in some one-on-one discussions between class sessions.
My impression of Lee is extremely positive, especially after I challenged him with my very first question: "How many students have you graduated and how many students have either died or been injured in the process?"
His response: "We've graduated over 4,000 students and we've had no deaths and no serious injuries, though we have had some students drop their bikes and suffer minor injuries." Straight up, no apologies, honest!!!! (Unlike a certain other well known source of rider training we all know.)
Cash spent the morning in a largely classroom oriented set of sessions while I spent some time out on the range with the class. It was HOT and everybody was greatly stressed by that heat, but Lee worked harder than I've ever seen an instructor work in demonstrating his techniques both out on the range and with EACH student (using their bikes). An old man like me would have a heart attack working as hard as he was, but he made it look easy.
There is a new Harley-Davidson dealership in Houston where this training was taking place. The site is large and its training range is perfectly adequate for this training (The site is licensed by Texas to provide this training as well as MSF's BRC and ERC classes).
There was a not quite surprising bit of news from Lee when we chatted - he has become an Expert Witness involved in motorcycle litigation issues just like myself. We exchanged telephone numbers and e-mail addresses which we will immediately put to use as I 'coach him' in some of the subtleties involved in his new pursuit.
By the way, one of our oldest members, Bill O'Brien (OB), was a student in this class obtaining his Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic certification. Bill has been a senior RiderCoach with the MSF for years and this new certification allows him to teach both kinds of classes. He introduced me to Keith Rovell, the Manager of Motorcycle Rentals of Houston, LP. Bill told Keith, who setup this training class, that I was the person who introduced him to motorcycle training all those years ago. [grin] Bill tells me that he will become active on the site again shortly.
Cash Anthony Administrator
1190 Posts
[Mentor]
Houston, Texas
USA Honda
Magna 750
Posted - 06/28/2009 : 6:20 PM
Altogether a completely positive experience for me, though I didn't take my bike to ride today's course. Lee Parks was a terrific instructor, and all the guys who were being 'tested' as new instructors were very well trained. It was great to see old instrutor friends, too.
I'm delighted to have been invited by Keith to experience the class. If there's a Total Control course in your area, take it once you're experienced enough to qualify.
Cash
scottrnelson
Advanced Member
5262 Posts
[Mentor]
Pleasanton, CA
USA KTM
990 Adv, ST2, XR650L
Posted - 06/28/2009 : 7:59 PM
Although I've never taken a Lee Parks course, I've read his book several times and have found it very useful. I suppose the biggest advantage of doing it live would be where he can point out any flaws in a person's riding. He actually explains things fairly well in his book and I've read a chapter then gone out and practiced quite a few of them.
I'll have to watch for the next class to be held in the Bay Area. It could be fun to attend and report on the experience.
OB Senior Member
488 Posts
Houston, TX
USA Buell
1125CR
Posted - 06/30/2009 : 7:44 PM
Jim, I would like to correct something you said in this message. I was not at the Total Control Course as an Instructor Candidate. I was there as a student. What this means is that I am not certified to teach a Lee Parks Total Control Course, although, I wish I did have the opportunity to take the Instructor Certification Course. Maybe that will happen someday in the not so distant future. One thing I can say with certainty at this point. My skill level in Lee Park's techniques are not developed to the point where I would be an acceptable instructor. I'm going to work on that however.
Yes, as I told Keith Rovell, Manager of Houston Rentals of Houston (a subsidiary to Mancusso Harley Davidson in Houston), you are the sole reason why I called up the State of Texas to get certified as an MSF Instructor. My certification date was April 1999 and I guess I have stuck with it these past 10 years. My first experience with formal training was an MSF ERC course some 12 years ago and you were there with me. I rode without training when I started. MSF didn't exist then and I was not aware of any training devoted to that subject.
Essentially all my work as an RC nowadays is contracting with Motorcycle Rentals of Houston, LP (MRH). Keith Rovell is a dedicated manager that tries hard to make sure things are as right as possible. When contracting to MRH, he is my direct contact with the organization, aka My Boss. And yes, at least he now knows who is directly responsible for getting me into this business. ;)
One thing is for certain, I really enjoyed the class and would whole heartedly recommend it to Experienced Riders. I would not consider recommending the "Total Control" class to inexperienced riders.
What I took this weekend , and what you saw, was just Level I. There is another course to take to complete the program.
quote:Originally posted by James R. Davis
Cash and I spent time today auditing one of Lee Parks' Instructor certification classes. By the way, one of our oldest members, Bill O'Brien (OB), was a student in this class obtaining his Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic certification. Bill has been a senior RiderCoach with the MSF for years and this new certification allows him to teach both kinds of classes. He introduced me to Keith Rovell, the Manager of Motorcycle Rentals of Houston, LP. Bill told Keith, who setup this training class, that I was the person who introduced him to motorcycle training all those years ago. [grin] Bill tells me that he will become active on the site again shortly.
OB Senior Member
488 Posts
Houston, TX
USA Buell
1125CR
Posted - 06/30/2009 : 8:01 PM
Scott,
I remember when you talked about buying the Lee Parks "Total Control / High Performance Street Riding Techniques" book. Did you ever write a review on it? Don't recall seeing that.
Anyway, I too read through Lee Park's book and thought I understood the concepts. In actuality, I was surprised about how poorly I actually implemented the techniques that were practiced at the one day course. The level I course does not cover all the techniques in his book.
In the beginning, I was asked what I wanted to get out of the class. I didn't have a typical desire. My goal was to have fun. It was met. I'm not going to complain about the other stuff I got out of the course, like learning some cornering techniques I have never really practiced before. Also, I immensely enjoyed his discussion about suspension set up. I was very clearly presented in the classroom and chassis set up was done on some of the students bikes.
My recommendation: Take the course. I think you will enjoy it.
quote:Originally posted by scottrnelson
Although I've never taken a Lee Parks course, I've read his book several times and have found it very useful. I suppose the biggest advantage of doing it live would be where he can point out any flaws in a person's riding. He actually explains things fairly well in his book and I've read a chapter then gone out and practiced quite a few of them.
I'll have to watch for the next class to be held in the Bay Area. It could be fun to attend and report on the experience.
James R. Davis Administrator
14934 Posts
[Mentor]
Houston, TX
USA Honda
GoldWing 1500
Posted - 08/02/2009 : 8:30 PM
OB,
The following has been reported to be Lee Parks' 10 step 'technique' for cornering on any bike:
quote:Step 1 - Reposition your foot. Get the balls of your feet on the pegs (or floor boards). Beyond balance, the goal is to ensure that your foot stays clear of the road!
Step 2 - Pre-position your body. Get in position for the middle-corner, before the corner starts. Get your rear off the seat toward the inside of the turn, rotate your pelvis toward the inside of the turn, and keep your inside elbow below the wrist. Your body's center-line should be inside of the bike's center-line. (This is the opposite of the guidance provided for off-road riding!) The goal is to get the CG of your body as low as possible to balance the bike, and allow it to stay as vertical as possible through the turn.
Step 3 - Push the outside grip. (This is the advanced part! Opposite of beginning "how to turn" guidance.) Lee likened this stage to an archer pulling back on the bow string. Pushing on the outside grip stores energy for the turn and balances the shift in weight from Step 2. The turn-in is then like the release of the bow string -- powerful and accurately controlled.
Step 4 - Locate turn-in point. Look for the turn point well in advance, and then look for the exit point about 10 feet prior to the turn-in point.
Step 5 - Look through the turn. Let your brain help connect the dots between the entry and exit. This will optimize smoothness and control.
Step 6 - Relax the outside grip.
Step 7 - Push inside grip (AKA the flop). This is about timing, not energy (just like the archer/bow analogy). You don't have to apply a big countersteer into the turn. Remember the goal of minimizing the energy you put into the bike. Steer with the inside arm only, to avoid a tug of war between your inside and outside arms.
Warning: In his book, Total Control, Lee writes: "As I approached a turn [on the racetrack] that was giving me problems, one that had me almost running off the outside, I decided to test my hypothesis and just let my inside arm do all the work. And, boy, did it ever work. In fact, initiating the turn at the exact same position on the track, even with substantially less effort on the bars, I turned so much quicker that I ran off the inside of the track and actually crashed." New students should apply the "inside only" steering technique described by Lee in an appropriate environment (e.g., a wide-open parking lot).
Step 8 - Roll on the throttle (smoothly). This will pick up the bike as you complete the turn and head toward the exit.
Step 9 - Push on the outside grip. This will complete the turn.
Step 10 - Move back to neutral position. Get your body back on the bike.
Now it is true that I did not audit very much of his class, but I would have been all over him if he actually taught this 'technique' for several reasons. Before getting into them, can you confirm that these ten steps are actually taught by Lee in his class?
Meanwhile, anybody else (OB included, of course), want to take a shot at identifying the parts of the 'technique' above which I claim to be total rubbish and a lack of understanding of reality?
scottrnelson
Advanced Member
5262 Posts
[Mentor]
Pleasanton, CA
USA KTM
990 Adv, ST2, XR650L
Posted - 08/02/2009 : 9:39 PM
quote:As I approached a turn [on the racetrack] that was giving me problems, one that had me almost running off the outside, I decided to test my hypothesis and just let my inside arm do all the work. And, boy, did it ever work. In fact, initiating the turn at the exact same position on the track, even with substantially less effort on the bars, I turned so much quicker that I ran off the inside of the track and actually crashed.
I can only say that when I read the above in his book I wondered if it could be true. So I went out on my favorite twisty road to check it out and I really didn't notice much difference. I worked at it for twenty or thirty miles and finally decided that it was one of the few tips of his that I would just forget.
Most of the tips in his book have been pretty good for me.
dogdoc427 Standard Member
192 Posts
Milan, New York
USA Yamaha
650+87 Honda GL1200I
Posted - 08/02/2009 : 10:49 PM
James,
I would say you disagree with steps 2,3, the last sentence in 7, all of the warning and step 10.
This information seems to be geared to riding in a more "spirited" manner than is necessary when riding within the legal limits.
Dogdoc427
Tburd Senior Member
410 Posts
Waukesha, WI
USA Suzuki
Boulevard S50
Posted - 08/02/2009 : 10:57 PM
quote: The goal is to get the CG of your body as low as possible to balance the bike, and allow it to stay as vertical as possible through the turn.
The combined cg will stay the same regardless of how far the rider leans. If the rider leans to the inside the bike will lean to the outside and the distance to each depends on the weight (mass) of both the rider and bike. While there may be other reasons for the rider to get as low as possible, it's the distance the riders cg is off the tire contact points that matters, not the vertical distance up or down.
James R. Davis Administrator
14934 Posts
[Mentor]
Houston, TX
USA Honda
GoldWing 1500
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 8:22 AM
Okay, I'm going to pretend that the ten step 'technique' was actually provided by Lee Parks and faithfully reproduced by my source. If I'm wrong, then one of you will correct that assumption, but I am now going to tear it to shreds.
It is a given that I believe that the technique has no place on public streets. It is a racing technique and I offer no comment, whatever, on racing technique. So, where he advises shifting the body into the turn in order to make the bike as vertical as possible, that is NOT part of my criticism.
Instead, we have idolatry at work and evidenced by the number of people who have received this training information and bought it hook line and sinker. At some point a normal every day human being, when confronted by celebrity, simply turns off all critical thinking and accepts as gospel what that celebrity says. He is, after all, a celebrity for a reason. The ten step technique is the work of a great pretender who is, himself, captured with the idea that because he is famous, what he says must be true - despite the fact that what he says CANNOT BE TRUE.
quote:Step 1 - Reposition your foot. Get the balls of your feet on the pegs (or floor boards). Beyond balance, the goal is to ensure that your foot stays clear of the road!
Step 2 - Pre-position your body. Get in position for the middle-corner, before the corner starts. Get your rear off the seat toward the inside of the turn, rotate your pelvis toward the inside of the turn, and keep your inside elbow below the wrist. Your body's center-line should be inside of the bike's center-line. (This is the opposite of the guidance provided for off-road riding!) The goal is to get the CG of your body as low as possible to balance the bike, and allow it to stay as vertical as possible through the turn.
As has been pointed out, 'low' is not meaningful (except as to allowing your knee to get close to the ground - something not mentioned in his explanation - and it lowers the combined bike/rider CG which makes the bike more easily 'flickable', also not mentioned).
quote:Step 3 - Push the outside grip. (This is the advanced part! Opposite of beginning "how to turn" guidance.) Lee likened this stage to an archer pulling back on the bow string. Pushing on the outside grip stores energy for the turn and balances the shift in weight from Step 2. The turn-in is then like the release of the bow string -- powerful and accurately controlled.
Absurd! Pushing on the outside grip MUST result in widening the turn - it is a counter-steering input. NO ENERGY IS 'STORED' as a result unless what he actually means is that you push on the outside grip as you simultaneously push on the inside grip, in which case there is energy stored - in your muscles. The idea that pushing on the outside grip 'balances' weight shift is ludicrous. By the way, using the same expression 'push on the outside grip' is subsequently used in step 9, properly, so there is no excuse to misrepresent or misunderstand what it does by the author.
quote:Step 4 - Locate turn-in point. Look for the turn point well in advance, and then look for the exit point about 10 feet prior to the turn-in point.
Step 5 - Look through the turn. Let your brain help connect the dots between the entry and exit. This will optimize smoothness and control.
Step 6 - Relax the outside grip.
If you have been pushing on it per step 3, then 'relaxing it' results in a counter-steer input that now begins to turn in the direction you actually want to go. We ALL know that what you actually do is press on the INSIDE GRIP (or PULL on the outside grip) to initiate the actual turn. Again what we see here is a non critical observer explaining what he is doing in terms that make absolutely no sense.
quote:Step 7 - Push inside grip (AKA the flop). This is about timing, not energy (just like the archer/bow analogy). You don't have to apply a big countersteer into the turn. Remember the goal of minimizing the energy you put into the bike. Steer with the inside arm only, to avoid a tug of war between your inside and outside arms.
Warning: In his book, Total Control, Lee writes: "As I approached a turn [on the racetrack] that was giving me problems, one that had me almost running off the outside, I decided to test my hypothesis and just let my inside arm do all the work. And, boy, did it ever work. In fact, initiating the turn at the exact same position on the track, even with substantially less effort on the bars, I turned so much quicker that I ran off the inside of the track and actually crashed." New students should apply the "inside only" steering technique described by Lee in an appropriate environment (e.g., a wide-open parking lot).
Here we see a bit of reality that peeks through not in the 'technique', but in the 'Warning' explanation. Here we see Lee explaining that he nearly ran off the inside of the track when he used his 'inside arm' to provide counter-steer input. That is, when he simply pushed on the inside grip as anybody who has even the slightest knowledge of what counter-steering is, or heard the MSF say 'push right, go right', does. He also confesses that until he does that his 'push on the outside grip' advice results in conflicting counter-steering input as both hands are fighting each other. This is 'total control'????
quote:Step 8 - Roll on the throttle (smoothly). This will pick up the bike as you complete the turn and head toward the exit.
This is utter nonsense!!! If you increase speed without opening up the turn radius, your bike will lean MORE, not less. This is a perfect example of the writer's lack of critical observation skills and willingness to spread the gospel according to what a celebrity (him) is certain must be true when it simply CANNOT BE TRUE at all.
quote:Step 9 - Push on the outside grip. This will complete the turn.
Step 10 - Move back to neutral position. Get your body back on the bike.
Gee, he got the last two right.
So, OB, did anybody in the class challenge any of that or did they buy it because of who said it?
Axiom2000 Moderator
974 Posts
[Mentor]
Georgetown, Delaware
USA BMW
R1200RT/ R1200C
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 3:37 PM
You are certainly correct about when someone with notoriety in a given field speaks even if is sounds wrong the tendency is not to question it. I had the same issues with "Pushing on the outside grip" as you do but considered it some kind of technique for racing I knew nothing about and just left as it laid.
Birdman Ex-Member
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 4:38 PM
Hi Folks, first of all let me apologize that this is my first post and that I've not introduced myself as of yet. I was told about this topic and since I familiar with this specific training and was (as you'll find out) specifically involved hopefully you'll pardon the lack of etiquette.
In any event, my name is Rob Hephner and I am a Total Control Instructor. I am also a MSF RiderCoach and have been involved in adult specific training for the past 20 years.
I'd like to respectfully address some of the misunderstandings here concerning the 10 Step to proper cornering. While it is obvious some here have already made up their mind before even being told about the process I only do so to help others to understand and be able to benefit from this advanced training.
First I would like to address the "Celebrity" aspect of this specific training in Houston. Lee didn't introduce or teach the 10 Steps to Proper Cornering in the class.....I did. In fact beyond the telling of his Daytona story Lee wasn't even in the room. Questions were asked and answered, but since I am sure you are saying "Who the heck is this guy?" I think we can set aside any "Celebrity" benefit to the presentation.
Therefore we are left with the curriculum.
I could give the entire presentation, but honestly I'm just going to address the issues that James R. Davis seems to have with the steps.
(For the purpose of explanation I will be giving all the following directions as if we are turning to the left.)
The purpose of Step 2 "Preposition Body" is to get your body into the position you want it to be in, in the middle of the corner, BEFORE the corner even starts. In other words you want your body's centerline to the inside of the bike's centerline.
Nowhere is low mentioned, in the book, or the training......
Doing this creates a gravitational pull and you'll also experience a aerodynamic effect.
At the same time you preposition your body you'll have to counter the gravitational and aerodynamic effects, you'll do so with Step 3 "Push Outside Grip.
Keep in mind that steps 1 - 5 happen before the turn, so this is all being done in the straight, BEFORE the turn. (Not IN the turn.)
So, Step 3 is simply the counter of Step 2, which in the straight will put the bike and rider in a V position. Since we are turning to the left, we'll move our body to the left and then push against the right grip. The bike will actually lean to the right slightly. (Thus pre-loaded) And the amount it leans to the right will be the ground clearance you gain to the left when you start the corner.
Now Step 6 "Relax the Outside Grip" should make more sense. It is also important to note that Step 6 and Step 7 happen at the same exact time and combined are called "The Flop." This is physics at its most basic level, neither absurd nor an incorrect observation.
You completely misunderstand why you only steer with the inside hand, if you take the course I guarantee you'll understand in the presentation and have it re-enforced when you apply it on the range.
Step 8 "Roll On Throttle" means that you add throttle throughout the corner, NOWHERE in the book or the presentation is this stated as "Standing up the Bike." If anything of the sort is said it is that "As the bike stands up, you apply more throttle." Big difference. Specifically we say "Inversely proportional to lean angle."
I think you'll find that the 10 Steps are not only understood, but accepted and work because the explanation of what they are and how things work are not what you understand them as being.
Basically the 10 Steps to Proper Cornering as you have them listed are NOT accurate. I suggest you reference the book or pick up a flyer from Mancuso HD to have a better understanding of them.
If you would like to respectfully discuss this further I'll try to look here or you can ask at www.totalcontrolforums.com.
Thanks,
Rob Hephner
Edited by - Birdman on 08/03/2009 4:50 PM
Tburd Senior Member
410 Posts
Waukesha, WI
USA Suzuki
Boulevard S50
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 7:41 PM
Thanks for the post Rob, you bring up some interesting points.
quote:Doing this creates a gravitational pull and you'll also experience a aerodynamic effect.
When you lean to the left the bike will lean to the right so the location of the composite cg will remain the same. I'm not seeing where the gravitation pull enters into this because the physical model (free body diagram in other words) has not changed, and while gravity is pulling down on the rider on the left it is also pulling down on the bike to the right. Overall I'm wondering if anything has changed.
quote:At the same time you preposition your body you'll have to counter the gravitational and aerodynamic effects, you'll do so with Step 3 "Push Outside Grip.
Here you mention that pushing on the outside grip counters the gravitational effects. In view of my previous question concerning gravitational effects, I'm not sure what has changed and what needs to be countered.
quote:Since we are turning to the left, we'll move our body to the left and then push against the right grip. The bike will actually lean to the right slightly. (Thus pre-loaded) And the amount it leans to the right will be the ground clearance you gain to the left when you start the corner.
In my view "pre-loaded" is not a good choice of words, it implies that energy is being stored which I believe is a stretch in the interpretation of what is happening. As I am understanding this I would simply say both the rider and the bike have been "pre-positioned."
Regards, -Mike
Birdman Ex-Member
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 7:53 PM
quote:Originally posted by Tburd
When you lean to the left the bike will lean to the right so the location of the composite cg will remain the same.
No it will not. If you lean off the left side up the bike it will go left unless you counter the force to the right, that is basic Newtonian Law.
quote:Originally posted by Tburd I'm not seeing where the gravitation pull enters into this because the physical model (free body diagram in other words) has not changed, and while gravity is pulling down on the rider on the left it is also pulling down on the bike to the right. Overall I'm wondering if anything has changed.
Stop wondering and go do.
quote:Originally posted by Tburd Here you mention that pushing on the left grip counters the gravitational effects. In view of my previous question concerning gravitational effects, I'm not sure what has changed and what needs to be countered.
Once again, go and try it.
(Keep in mind, if you are not properly pre-positioning your body you'll quite possible not need to push to maintain the V.)
quote:Originally posted by Tburd In my view "pre-loaded" is not a good choice of words, it implies that energy is being stored which I believe is a stretch in the interpretation of what is happening. As I am understanding this I would simply say both the rider and the bike have been "pre-positioned."
Energy is being stored as you are countering both gravity and aerodynamic forces. Trying to show you this or teach you via the Internet simply isn't going to work. Additionally, if you are not open to trying new things you'll find a thousand reasons in your head it shouldn't work. (I mean bumblebees can't fly on paper, yes?)
Lee will tell you himself that most of the 10 Steps are nothing new, all we are doing is breaking things down into a technology that is easy to understand and critique (on your own) on the fly.
This part of Total Control is Basic Physics and I can show you in person on your bike exactly what is happening in the V position. When you lean left the bike must lean right and to do so you must press something. The handgrip on the opposite side is the largest available lever.
James R. Davis Administrator
14934 Posts
[Mentor]
Houston, TX
USA Honda
GoldWing 1500
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 8:00 PM
quote:Nowhere is low mentioned, in the book, or the training......
At the same time you preposition your body you'll have to counter the gravitational and aerodynamic effects, you'll do so with Step 3 "Push Outside Grip.
Very interesting, and untrue. Just the fact that you have shifted your body weight accomplishes the 'counter' of the gravitational and aerodynamics effects - the bike body will move away from your body whether you push on the outside grip or not. But if you do, as you suggest, push on that grip, you WILL NO LONGER BE RIDING IN A STRAIGHT LINE, despite what you say.
I heard Lee tell his students to do that at least a dozen times. I confess I did not hear the rationale for doing it from him, but I also heard him tell those students to get your body 'low' in the process and emphasized many times that he specifically wanted to see their bodies low enough that the inside arm was lower than its wrist.
So, step 6 and step 7 happen at the exact same time, according to you. I wonder, then, why they are separate steps. And I also wonder why step 8 and step 9 are not similarly identified as happening at the same time because you can be certain that unless they are the bike will lean farther into the turn, not stand up, until step 9 occurs. Better, of course, would be to reverse the order of steps 8 and 9 because failing to do so makes no sense whatever.
Thank you for explaining that this entire explanation is 'physics at its basic', though, again, you are both demonstrating non-critical observation skills and a fundamental misunderstanding of those basics.
Birdman Ex-Member
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 8:21 PM
quote:Originally posted by James R. Davis
Very interesting, and untrue. Just the fact that you have shifted your body weight accomplishes the 'counter' of the gravitational and aerodynamics effects - the bike body will move away from your body whether you push on the outside grip or not.
James, you are the perfect example of an Expert Mind.
quote:Originally posted by James R. Davis But if you do, as you suggest, push on that grip, you WILL NO LONGER BE RIDING IN A STRAIGHT LINE, despite what you say.
I can, and I do, as do about thousands of riders daily.
quote:Originally posted by James R. Davis So, step 6 and step 7 happen at the exact same time, according to you. I wonder, then, why they are separate steps.
They happen that way according to the training, not me.
While they happen at the same time they are separate actions....thus separate steps. You don't want this to work and this level of nit-picking is a perfect example of your opinion.
quote:Originally posted by James R. DavisAnd I also wonder why step 8 and step 9 are not similarly identified as happening at the same time because you can be certain that unless they are the bike will lean farther into the turn, not stand up, until step 9 occurs. Better, of course, would be to reverse the order of steps 8 and 9 because failing to do so makes no sense whatever.
I'm very sorry you didn't spend the time or effort to understand this on your bike on the range. You were given an opportunity to learn and didn't Nothing more really needs to be understood here.
quote:Originally posted by James R. Davis
Thank you for explaining that this entire explanation is 'physics at its basic', though, again, you are both demonstrating non-critical observation skills and a fundamental misunderstanding of those basics.
Are you trying to insult me? You might pick a less demeaning and superior tone as it would not them come off as the Wolf claiming the Grapes are Sour.
quote:Originally posted by James R. Davis I heard Lee tell his students to do that at least a dozen times. I confess I did not hear the rationale for doing it from him,
So, quite possibly you didn't get the whole story? Nor did you ask then or later to understand?
quote:Originally posted by James R. Davisbut I also heard him tell those students to get your body 'low' in the process and emphasized many times that he specifically wanted to see their bodies low enough that the inside arm was lower than its wrist.
James, you didn't take the class, and thus you simply observed and didn't involve yourself in the process, therefore you affected what you believe about that process and pre-determined the outcome.
Read up on the Heisenberg Principle and you may gain some insight.
As I stated up front I'm not going to change your mind, nor could I teach you anything as you are an expert. I only posted to correct the inaccurate representation of your reporting or the reporting you were referencing.
If you approach any training negatively, I don't care if it is motorcycle based or needlepoint, you will not learn anything ever, you'll simply further convince yourself that your viewpoint is perfect.
Good luck, but I'm sure you'll tell me you don't need it. ;)
James R. Davis Administrator
14934 Posts
[Mentor]
Houston, TX
USA Honda
GoldWing 1500
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 8:38 PM
[sigh]
In one breath 'pushing on the outside grip' is an anti-gravity methodology and in the next it 'completes the turn'. Amazing.
The MSF teaches turning in one or two steps (brake before and 'push righ, go right') but you teach that it takes ten. Very commercial packaging, I'll admit, even if you don't quite agree with the sequencing ("They happen that way according to the training, not me.")
Well, feel free to challenge my understanding of physics all you want, but do be prepared to be challenged each and every time you misrepresent reality here.
Birdman Ex-Member
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 8:47 PM
quote:Originally posted by James R. Davis
Well, feel free to challenge my understanding of physics all you want, but do be prepared to be challenged each and every time you misrepresent reality here.
The reality is that you had the chance to truly understand the Clinic and you did not take it.
I don't really need to go further than that, do I?
I get that you don't "get it" and you never will, I'm sorry you never gave it a chance.
The Meromorph Advanced Member
719 Posts
[Mentor]
White House, TN
USA BMW
R1100R
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 9:02 PM
Birdman, I have more issues than I can reasonably document with many of your statements, but two stand out as outrageous
1)
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Tburd In my view "pre-loaded" is not a good choice of words, it implies that energy is being stored which I believe is a stretch in the interpretation of what is happening. As I am understanding this I would simply say both the rider and the bike have been "pre-positioned."
Energy is being stored as you are countering both gravity and aerodynamic forces. Trying to show you this or teach you via the Internet simply isn't going to work. Additionally, if you are not open to trying new things you'll find a thousand reasons in your head it shouldn't work. (I mean bumblebees can't fly on paper, yes?)
If what you claim here were true, then if you continued to ride straight down a straight road in this position, you would be storing more and more energy the further you went... Obviously that is nonsense. Perhaps you meant energy has been stored? But since you just lowered (slightly) the center of gravity of the rider, the bike, and (combined) the whole system, then you actually lost 'potential energy', so that is obviously nonsense, too...
2) 'Push on the outside grip'. You specify you are setting up for a left hand turn, and you say that at this point you are still going straight. Well, if you push on the right hand (outside) grip, that will initiate a turn to the right. There's no ifs ands buts or maybes to that. Obviously you're not doing what you think you're doing (common enough in people who don't understand countersteering, and think they can 'body steer'). I say obviously because if you did, you would turn right. I suspect you are pushing against both grips, which would be why 'pushing with only the inside hand' would give such dramatic effects. You've been inhibiting the countersteering by always pushing both grips.
Axiom2000 Moderator
974 Posts
[Mentor]
Georgetown, Delaware
USA BMW
R1200RT/ R1200C
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 9:11 PM
quote:At the same time you preposition your body you'll have to counter the gravitational and aerodynamic effects, you'll do so with Step 3 "Push Outside Grip.
Birdman I also need to hear more about this one please. Are you saying that the gravitational and aerodynamic effect created by the body preposition will cause a motorcycle to begin to turn and that has to be countered with opposite grip pressure? If not what are the results of these effects that need to be countered?
Birdman Ex-Member
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 9:33 PM
quote:Originally posted by The Meromorph
If what you claim here were true, then if you continued to ride straight down a straight road in this position, you would be storing more and more energy the further you went... Obviously that is nonsense. Perhaps you meant energy has been stored?
Yes, has been.
quote:Originally posted by The Meromorph
But since you just lowered (slightly) the center of gravity of the rider, the bike, and (combined) the whole system, then you actually lost 'potential energy', so that is obviously nonsense, too...
Stored energy is not lost, review your understanding of Newton's Laws.
2) 'Push on the outside grip'. You specify you are setting up for a left hand turn, and you say that at this point you are still going straight. Well, if you push on the right hand (outside) grip, that will initiate a turn to the right. There's no ifs ands buts or maybes to that.
A push or press initiates a lean, which I stated as the purpose of that push. No established and credible training curriculum claims otherwise. If you are teaching MSF, you may want to review what you are teaching....
quote:Originally posted by The MeromorphObviously you're not doing what you think you're doing (common enough in people who don't understand countersteering, and think they can 'body steer'). I say obviously because if you did, you would turn right. I suspect you are pushing against both grips, which would be why 'pushing with only the inside hand' would give such dramatic effects. You've been inhibiting the countersteering by always pushing both grips.
Name calling rarely makes your point correct. Do a little research and let me know what you find.
BTW, you are mis-quoting the steps because you haven't learned them....
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