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gymnast
Moderator
2814 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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 Posted - 08/03/2009 : 8:34 PM
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Birdman, would you venture to give an opinion as to weather Bruce Rossmeyer's recent crash was a matter related primarily to lack of skill or lack or judgment?
I was also wondering if you have formal advanced training in kinesiology as well as motor skills training theory and methods at the undergraduate or graduate level? Do you have an opinion of the level of subcortical psychomotor skills development that is gained in a one weekend course? |
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Birdman
Ex-Member
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Posted - 08/03/2009 : 10:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gymnast
Birdman, would you venture to give an opinion as to weather Bruce Rossmeyer's recent crash was a matter related primarily to lack of skill or lack or judgment?
The respectful way to ask someone's opinion is to first state your own and then ask if that person agrees. At least that is what my grandmother taught me.
quote:
Originally posted by gymnastI was also wondering if you have formal advanced training in kinesiology as well as motor skills training theory and methods at the undergraduate or graduate level?
I have a degree in musical performance, which at its very base level is motor skills training.
quote:
Originally posted by gymnastDo you have an opinion of the level of subcortical psychomotor skills development that is gained in a one weekend course?
Practically nil, which is why it is better to teach a person how to self-critique, as it will aid them for a much longer period.
So, basically if someone isn't a sheep here you all just jump all over them in the nicest disrespectful way possible? |
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James R. Davis
 Administrator
14935 Posts
[Mentor]
Houston, TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing 1500
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Posted - 08/03/2009 : 10:26 PM
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| Congratulations - you just found the exit door. |
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whittlebeast
Junior Member
30 Posts
St Louis, MO
USA
Yamaha
FZ1
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Posted - 09/21/2009 : 9:39 PM
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I have been an autocross instructor for years. All of my kids have been thru racing school and spent hours on the track at speed before they were ever allowed to take a car out on the street by themselves. I found that that were far less aggressive drivers on the street once they realized just how fast a true race vehicle really was and just how unrewarding fast driving on the street was. There street car were merely transportation after they were exposed to the violence of a true track vehicle.
To the best of my knowledge none of my children have any tickets or accidents on the street. Now they are 27, 24, and 22.
My oldest son, at 17, turned the third fastest time on the second day of all 1200 competitors at nationals. Below is a pic of the car he did it in and the matching geez trace. I have never found a better way to break bad habits in faster or safer.
Most track events we run are video taped and data logged in interest of documenting any mistake and treated as a learning opportunity.
WB
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Edited by - whittlebeast on 09/21/2009 10:10 PM |
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gymnast
Moderator
2814 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 09/21/2009 : 10:58 PM
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Your post reminded me of two young drivers whose careers I followed rather closely when I was much younger. Their names were Ricardo and Pedro Rodriguez. They were not noted for their background or skills as motorcyclists.
This is a motorcycle safety and rider training Forum, and it's main concern is the education and training of riders to operate their motorcycles in a reasonable and prudent manner in a roadway environment, not on a race track or competitions where speed is a factor. |
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Axiom2000
Moderator
974 Posts
[Mentor]
Georgetown, Delaware
USA
BMW
R1200RT/ R1200C
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Posted - 09/22/2009 : 4:48 AM
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Gymnast,
quote:
Ricardo and Pedro Rodriguez
You have a way of bringing back memories. " The little Mexicans" as they were known. Unfortunately both of them met their fate at the wheel of racing cars. |
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whittlebeast
Junior Member
30 Posts
St Louis, MO
USA
Yamaha
FZ1
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Posted - 09/22/2009 : 6:09 AM
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My youngest son rides a 99 Buell on the street and a 200 cc KTM competitively in the woods. It's the bike in the woods that scares me to death. On the street he does not trust anybody or anything.
I think he and his friends even gave up drinking as they would rather race on Sunday than party on Saturday.
Drinking and riding appears to be all over in the Harley crowd. Even my MSF course instructor admitted to bar hopping during the class. I was shocked.
WB |
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Axiom2000
Moderator
974 Posts
[Mentor]
Georgetown, Delaware
USA
BMW
R1200RT/ R1200C
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Posted - 09/24/2009 : 4:46 AM
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quote:
Drinking and riding appears to be all over in the Harley crowd. Even my MSF course instructor admitted to bar hopping during the class. I was shocked.
I don't think that sin is limited to owners of any particular brand of motorcycle. RUI is just stupid, if you actually had a certified Rider Coach admit to you that they would ride after drinking, they should lose their certification to teach. |
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ultra
Starting Member
5 Posts
Milwaukie, OR
USA
Harley-Davidson
Ultra Classic
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Posted - 09/28/2009 : 11:37 PM
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| What are your thoughts on Advanced Riders edge classes offered by Harley. I have been considering the advanced handling class. It is held on a closed to the public race track. They teach you on your own bike not a small one. Hard braking and obstacle avoidance are part of class structure. |
Edited by - ultra on 09/28/2009 11:45 PM |
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ultra
Starting Member
5 Posts
Milwaukie, OR
USA
Harley-Davidson
Ultra Classic
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Posted - 10/02/2009 : 8:54 AM
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| It appears that no one cares for the riders edge programs by the overwelming silence to my question? Is it because it is Harley related? |
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gymnast
Moderator
2814 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 10/02/2009 : 9:40 AM
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| Ultra, perhaps it is because the course is so seldom offered that no one has any experience with it. Harley Davidson has not issued a blizzard of press releases on the course and I have seen no studies of the effectiveness of the course as a crash or injury countermeasure. Perhaps the the course is more "vaporware" than reality at the present time? |
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ultra
Starting Member
5 Posts
Milwaukie, OR
USA
Harley-Davidson
Ultra Classic
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Posted - 10/02/2009 : 7:50 PM
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| In my location the experienced and advanced training is offered along with the standard beginners course several times a summer. they utilize a rented race track and you learn on your own bike. |
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gymnast
Moderator
2814 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 10/02/2009 : 11:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ultra
In my location the experienced and advanced training is offered along with the standard beginners course several times a summer. they utilize a rented race track and you learn on your own bike.
Perhaps you have a bit more information, (a link or website reference) for the courses you have identified. I find a reference to an advanced riders edge course offered by Latus HD that includes classroom and range instruction. Is this the course you refer to? Have you taken this course? |
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Night Train
Moderator
1336 Posts
[Mentor]
Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada
Harley-Davidson
03 Electra Glide Std
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Posted - 10/03/2009 : 2:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ultra
It appears that no one cares for the riders edge programs by the overwelming silence to my question? Is it because it is Harley related?
The pros and cons of Riders Edge have been discussed in a number of threads on this site. From what I've read, most information is available in respect to the Riders Edge counterpart to the BRC but I have not seen anything in respect to the Riders Edge Advanced Riders program. If one were available in my area I would take it regardless of what organization put it on, if it was conducted by qualified and knowledgeable instructors. Perhaps the silence to your question is for the reason cited by Gymnast. We don't know enough about the program to comment on it.
Don't be too quick to allow paranoia to set in because of motorcycle brand names. There are a large number of Harley riders on this site as well as riders of almost every other brand of motorcycle one can think of. We all share a common interest in motorcycling, and obviously motorcycle safety, or we wouldn't be here.
It sounds like you are fortunate in your area to have an active Advanced Riders Program and I, for one, would be interested in hearing more about it.
Before I could offer comment or advice in respect to whether or not you should take the course (if that is what you are asking), I would need to know more about the course itself and as well what riding experience you have and what courses you have taken prior to this. |
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Axiom2000
Moderator
974 Posts
[Mentor]
Georgetown, Delaware
USA
BMW
R1200RT/ R1200C
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Posted - 10/03/2009 : 5:17 AM
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Ultra
Are you referring to the Riders Edge "Skilled Riders COurse"? If so I believe that is the HD version of the MSF Experienced Riders Course. |
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ultra
Starting Member
5 Posts
Milwaukie, OR
USA
Harley-Davidson
Ultra Classic
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Posted - 10/03/2009 : 7:15 PM
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| Latus motors is the dealer that offers the classes. I have not taken them. They offer three levels. Introductory for the novice, skilled for those that have been riding for a number of years and the advanced level after that I have no data on paper of what is offered. It looks like they are done for the season they seem to offer them only couple times a year. |
Edited by - ultra on 10/05/2009 12:18 AM |
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SkootchNC
Advanced Member
607 Posts
[Mentor]
raleigh, north carolina
USA
Harley-Davidson
road glide
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Posted - 10/05/2009 : 6:14 AM
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Ultra,
You can go to the MSF site and read about the ERC, and it's curriculum, http://www.msf-usa.org/
and you can go to the HD site, and read the blurb regarding the Rider's Edge "advanced rider's class"
http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/...locale=en_US
Neither site reports deeply on the course, and Harley simply states the instructors are both MSF and HD certified.
As I understand the classes, (I've taken the MSF on my previous bike, as well as my current) The material is the same as the BRC, except the first portion is skipped, no introduction to the controls, or "paddle walking" involved. The class goes straight into the slow cone weave.
I believe any class you take, is better than no class at all. However there have been issues mentioned regarding the clutch on the RE's beginner class bike, as well as the "hard sell" of HD gear, and motorcycles at many Rider's Edge classes. In fairness... the MSF is also referred to as "the motorcycle SALES foundation".
Either class, can impart the impression that a novice, can go from "know nothing" to "capable street rider" in one short weekend.
For an "in depth" understanding of the issues regarding the "Rider's Edge" class, as well as the MSF class, go to http://wmoon.wordpress.com/.
Again, I'm of the opinion that ANY class, is better than going out and trying on your own. The MSF-ERC is simply offered more often, and at more locations.
Frank |
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dhalen32
Moderator
644 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Buell
XB12X Ulysses
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Posted - 10/05/2009 : 10:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SkootchNC
Ultra,
You can go to the MSF site and read about the ERC, and it's curriculum, http://www.msf-usa.org/
and you can go to the HD site, and read the blurb regarding the Rider's Edge "advanced rider's class"
http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/...locale=en_US
Neither site reports deeply on the course, and Harley simply states the instructors are both MSF and HD certified.
As I understand the classes, (I've taken the MSF on my previous bike, as well as my current) The material is the same as the BRC, except the first portion is skipped, no introduction to the controls, or "paddle walking" involved. The class goes straight into the slow cone weave.
I believe any class you take, is better than no class at all. However there have been issues mentioned regarding the clutch on the RE's beginner class bike, as well as the "hard sell" of HD gear, and motorcycles at many Rider's Edge classes. In fairness... the MSF is also referred to as "the motorcycle SALES foundation".
Either class, can impart the impression that a novice, can go from "know nothing" to "capable street rider" in one short weekend.
For an "in depth" understanding of the issues regarding the "Rider's Edge" class, as well as the MSF class, go to http://wmoon.wordpress.com/.
Again, I'm of the opinion that ANY class, is better than going out and trying on your own. The MSF-ERC is simply offered more often, and at more locations.
Frank
Frank:
You have some incorrect information in your posting.
The Rider's Edge New Rider Course is an MSF BRC with a lot more added to the classroom and some additional riding time on the range. The range exercises are identical except for time allotted. Think of it as an MSF BRC with extras. Nothing is subtracted as you have stated above.
The Rider's Edge Skilled Rider Course is an MSF ERC with more activities added to the "classroom" (extended breaks from the range work; there is no sit-down formal clasroom work in an ERC). The range exercises are identical.
Dave
Ultra:
Latus' website only states the availability of the two courses I have described above. There is no mention of a third more advanced curriculum option. I can assure you there is no official third Rider's Edge course. It is possible that Latus has an additional Team Oregon offering though.
Dave
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gymnast
Moderator
2814 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 10/05/2009 : 10:25 AM
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| Ultra, Google "Team Oregon Motorcycle Safety Program" and you will find mention of advanced courses being offered in Oregon. Team Oregon is the primary source of Motorcycle rider training in the state of Oregon and the only program provider recognized by the the state for license waiver issuance. Team Oregon provides courses for riders of all levels. The most advanced training mentioned on their website is offered at only two locations in the state according to information I found on the website. |
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ultra
Starting Member
5 Posts
Milwaukie, OR
USA
Harley-Davidson
Ultra Classic
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Posted - 10/05/2009 : 9:25 PM
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I agree that the not all the classes are listed on the web site. They make them known through the Hog meetings when they are signing up students. I believe the classes are only offered a couple times a year to maximize the numbers of students. They have been only offered on weekdays which requires students to take time off.
I have over 50,000 miles under my belt on my ultra with out the advanced training and wonder of the benefits for me. As a road captain I am involved in teaching group riding classes to new members of the local Hog club. We do not teach them how to ride but how we ride as a group. |
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