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Roadie
 Junior Member
31 Posts
Tulsa, Ok
USA
Yamaha
Roadstar
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 Posted - 08/07/2009 : 9:09 AM
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This is an excerpt from the MSF E News that gets sent out to RiderCoaches. There is an article about the reduction in motorcycle accidents for the Navy, Marines, and Army. The USAF has just rolled out its sport bike course.
I have been certified and teaching the MSRC for the Marines, aand it is good to hear there is reduction. It is in part to the MSRC, but also more involvement, awareness, and support by everyone.
"This is a copy of MSF's E news
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Military Sportbike RiderCourse Paying Huge Dividends
Update on the success of the MSRC in helping to promote safe and responsible
riding.
NAVY
Navy motorcycle fatalities have been reduced 65 percent from the previous
year, with a 62 percent reduction in sportbike fatalities. The emphasis on
training and especially on the completion of the Military Sportbike
RiderCourse (MSRC) is paying huge dividends. To date, about half of the
approximately 11,676 Navy sportbike riders have completed the MSRC. Note: in
FY08, 29 out of 33 Navy motorcycle fatalities occurred on sportbikes. MSF is
also working with the states to provide ARC-ST, which is extremely helpful
to the Navy when we are planning to reach remote activities.
USMC
From 2008 to 2009, USMC motorcycle fatalities were reduced 53.8 percent from
26 deaths to 12 deaths. Sportbike related deaths have seen a 65 percent
reduction in fatalities from 23 to 8. The improvement is significant, and is
due in part to the involvement of the MSF, which focuses on the human
element of the riding task in general and sportbike riders specifically via
its specially designed MSRC.
ARMY
The Army recently reported that it has pulled the right mix of online and
hands-on programs that their soldiers and civilians go through to receive
certification training on motorcycle operations, as well as informal
programs such as motorcycle clubs to enhance the skills they learn. With
these efforts, they are making progress. Last year, they lost 51 soldiers
due to motorcycle accidents. So far this year, the Army has lost 21, whereas
it had already lost 33 at the same time last year. The Army has included
delivery of the MSRC in its training program.
The Army has also "expanded emphasis" on the Battle Buddy concept, and is
also working to change cultures in organizations so that everyone
understands their roles in promoting responsible riding.
C 2008-2009 Motorcycle Safety Foundation, Inc. 2 Jenner, Suite 150, Irvine
CA 92618. All rights reserved.
Keep it safe out there!
Steve
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gymnast
Moderator
2814 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 08/07/2009 : 11:17 AM
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| Roadie, as much as I hope the press release you are citing indicates a positive trend and I have no doubt of the excellent intentions of the military, do you not agree that it would be wise to wait until 2009 is over to compare fatalities for 2009 to those of 2008 or 2007? I would prefer to see a peer reviewed study of the program than an MSF E-Mail if I were to form opinions and make judgments about the program. |
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Roadie
Junior Member
31 Posts
Tulsa, Ok
USA
Yamaha
Roadstar
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Posted - 08/07/2009 : 11:48 AM
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Thanks Gymnast for your comments! I agree, and hope the numbers are "apples to apples" meaning they compared the numbers to DATE so far; to the same date last year.
I totally agree also that some outside and military numbers should come out.
As I mentioned, I am only involved with the Marines. The article commented "The improvement is significant, and is
due in part to the involvement of the MSF". I would like to stress "DUE IN PART". The Marines have required a mentorship program, clubs within the units, mandatory club meetings, more involvement with peers, have purchased simulators, offering free advanced training courses with Lee Parks and Keith Code, and have recently come out with a 40 min professional movie about riding involving Keith Code, as well as MANY other professional riders from all venues called "Semper Ride".
Bottom line I think is that MSF involvement with the MSRC is another spoke in the wheel that seems to be getting a positive turn around in the stats.
Cheers
Steve |
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gsxr rider
New Member
10 Posts
Naha, Okinawa
Japan
Suzuki
GSXR-750 / ST 250
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Posted - 11/12/2009 : 10:02 AM
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The biggest key is that we got our service men and woman trained. The Marines (as an example) saw a dramatic spike in fatalities concerning 2 wheel fatalities in 2008, and literally was at a lost on corrective measures. Marines have always been able to improvise, overcome and adapt to situations, and did not fall short in this new endevor. New instituted training methods were established, along with measures of accountability, and reporting. The Marines were at a loss on what to do, to get the "underground" riders out of hiding. These were the riders that never had training, although licensed, or declined to registered their motorcycle on post for a variety of reasons. Initiatives by professionals in the field were a great influence on reversing the trend. The goal now is to sustain it's downward spiral, and maintain the momentum of new and old riders to continue learning, and seeking out training opportunities.
You can follow the trend at the naval safety center, but comparing FY 08 Navy had 33 Fatalities on 2 wheels and the Marine Corps had 25. This pass FY09, the Navy had 13 fatalities on 2 wheels and the Marine Corps lost 14 Marines. That is a significant turn around, considering the growth of riders, and has not been seen since 2002.
Paul |
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here2learn
New Member
15 Posts
san diego, ca
USA
Yamaha
Virago
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Posted - 03/30/2010 : 10:30 AM
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Roadie
I love stats, but a reduction in the number of fatalities does not necessarily mean program success.
The # of fatalities is only part of the equation, the rate of fatalities computed per 100,000 personnel is a much more accurate measure.
for example, if 4 of 10 riders get hurt one year(40%) and 3 in 6 the next year (50%), you had a reduction of 1 fatality that year but the rate increased 10%.
In Sep 2008 the Navy/Marines had a record high fatality (see link A) 4.75 / 100,000 personnel. By Nov 2009 that rate dropped to 2.5. What changed?
The MSF and the Navy would like for you to think it is because of their training efforts, however, they did not change training during that time and the MSRC was already established. If I am wrong the reduction you noted should continue, however, I propose another possiblity.
In Oct 2008 the credit markets froze, dealers had bikes to sell and Sailors and Marines wanted to buy(see link b), but they could not get financing.
If the training was effective rate will continue to drop or level out, if not, as the credit becomes available again, the rate will again rise.
Sadly the Navy has never seen a sustained decrease in fatalities or injuries by conducting MIC sponsored training(over 15 years), yet they are unwilling to consider any other alternative.
(A)Combined Sailor/Marine Motorcycle Fatality Rate
http://www.nmcti.org/docs/articles/...lityrate.pdf
(B)The Spectacular Effect the Credit Crisis had on Navy/Marine Motorcycle Fatality Rates
http://www.nmcti.org/docs/articles/...itCrisis.pdf |
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aidanspa
Advanced Member
1458 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Harley-Davidson
Heritage Softail
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Posted - 03/30/2010 : 12:35 PM
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| A very interesting post, and your link "The Spectacular Effect the Credit Crisis..." was an eye-opener. |
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DataDan
Standard Member
200 Posts
[Mentor]
Central Coast, CA
USA
Honda
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Posted - 03/30/2010 : 3:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by here2learn
Sadly the Navy has never seen a sustained decrease in fatalities or injuries by conducting MIC sponsored training(over 15 years), yet they are unwilling to consider any other alternative.
Is there an alternative that has been demonstrated to reduce injuries and deaths among any riding population? |
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SheGoes
 Starting Member
4 Posts
Oceanside, Ca
USA
Suzuki
s50
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Posted - 03/30/2010 : 5:44 PM
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| I live near Camp pendleton and a lot of the military riders scare me to death.( oh yes- when I see base decals on their bikes and they are wearing cammies I have to assume they are in the military). The primary focus on base appears to be teaching sport bike riders how to ride even faster. Bringing in race instructors to teach riders how to speed, lean, turn faster etc. does not appear to be teaching them how to ride in street traffic. Unfortubnately very few military riders appear to be loading their bikes up and attending track days- instead they take their newly taught skills to the local streets, cutting through traffic, tailgating cars that are not moving fast enough to suit them, lane splitting at 80mph plus on local freeways, doing wheelies, etc. I think the main focus should be safety and situational awareness at all times- not SPEED and racing. |
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Daddio
Senior Member
470 Posts
[Mentor]
Calera, AL
USA
Suzuki
Bandit 1250
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Posted - 03/31/2010 : 7:44 AM
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quote:
from SheGoes
I live near Camp pendleton and a lot of the military riders scare me to death.( oh yes- when I see base decals on their bikes and they are wearing cammies I have to assume they are in the military). The primary focus on base appears to be teaching sport bike riders how to ride even faster. Bringing in race instructors to teach riders how to speed, lean, turn faster etc. does not appear to be teaching them how to ride in street traffic. Unfortubnately very few military riders appear to be loading their bikes up and attending track days- instead they take their newly taught skills to the local streets, cutting through traffic, tailgating cars that are not moving fast enough to suit them, lane splitting at 80mph plus on local freeways, doing wheelies, etc. I think the main focus should be safety and situational awareness at all times- not SPEED and racing.
James has been tapped to present to some military riders mid May. I am very interested on hearing of his experience.
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/t...rms=military
It is my understanding that members of our military are not only subject to the laws we all are. They are also subject to accountability under the UCMJ. I would hope that anyone caught stunting the way you describe would not just get a ticket from our civilian LEO's but also be expected to answer to his NCO in charge or CO. Double jeopardy does exist for these folks.
I do not expect that normal traffic infractions should carry draconin consequenses. Behavior as you describe is a different case and should be dealt with harshly.
edit to add link to James topic on speaking to the Navy. |
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midlife_crisis
Junior Member
91 Posts
[Mentor]
Mineral Springs, NC
USA
Yamaha
YZF600R, YZF1000R
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Posted - 03/31/2010 : 8:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SheGoes
...The primary focus on base appears to be teaching sport bike riders how to ride even faster. Bringing in race instructors to teach riders how to speed, lean, turn faster etc. does not appear to be teaching them how to ride in street traffic. Unfortubnately very few military riders appear to be loading their bikes up and attending track days- instead they take their newly taught skills to the local streets...
This disturbs me greatly if true. I seem to remember an article that did specifically mention that stunters and racers were being "enlisted" to teach parts of the base courses, so there may be some problems a-brewin'.
This phenomenon also rears its ugly head in the civilian world (about which I have frequently commented on other topics), where far too many participants in "track days" do so solely to instill in themselves a belief that their new-found superior skill will enable them to perform more extreme speed and lean maneuvers on the street. The results frequently ain't purty. 
I think that Daddio has a point, though: the UCMJ should not be kind to serious infractions, and probably isn't. Let's hope that the base brass nips this trend in the bud.
**edit** I have a friend who's based at the Marine base in Hawaii. He's an officer (2nd Lieut) but he bought an FZ1 when he was transferred from Quantico and the Corps shipped it to Hawaii. He took the BRC when I did - back in 2004 - but never owned a motorcycle before the FZ1 which he never got to ride stateside. I'll try to contact him to find out what policies are in place at his base, and what he had to do. |
Edited by - midlife_crisis on 03/31/2010 10:46 AM |
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here2learn
New Member
15 Posts
san diego, ca
USA
Yamaha
Virago
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Posted - 03/31/2010 : 11:59 AM
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DataDan
"Is there an alternative that has been demonstrated to reduce injuries and deaths among any riding population?" No, and neither has the industry sponsored training, in fact, we could say it has been proven ineffective.
I suspect that from the Navy's perspective as well as states and other interested stakeholders the point is "We know popular training increases fatalities(still in denial despite the facts), but what else can we do?" Especially when we are so invested in the current paradigm.
Here is a gem of a quote from a CA report "In 2007, 41,059 people were killed and 2,490,000 were injured nationwide in motor vehicle crashes. Recent national data published by NHTSA indicate that deaths and injuries attributable to motorcycle crashes are becoming a larger portion of this serious public health problem. Motorcyclist fatalities have been increasing since 1997, and motorcyclists injured have been increasing since 1999. The effects of a crash involving a motorcycle can often be devastating." http://www.ots.ca.gov/pdf/Publicati...rnia_REV.pdf
Step 1: Admit that MIC sponsored training is not working
Step 2: Stop doing what isn't working just so we can say we are doing something.
Step 3: Discourage behaviors that increase fatalities and encourage behaviors that decrease them.
Step 4: Look for and seriously consider alternatives to the industry standard.
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here2learn
New Member
15 Posts
san diego, ca
USA
Yamaha
Virago
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Posted - 03/31/2010 : 12:11 PM
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This is in response to She goes and military riders in general.
She goes, makes an excellent point that military riders are encouraged by track days, stunt shows, and training with racers to exceed their limits, to challenge themselves to perform at that level.
Let me offer a story.
I went to a "Motorcycle Safety" event to encourage riders to make informed decisions about riding. It was on a local base, sponsored by the chain of command. I expected there to be an overemphasis on motorcycling as a sport because I have observed this for years, but I was not prepared for the stunt show I observed.
The first thing I noticed was stunt riders demonstrating their skills at a "Safety" event, I thought at least they had an ambulance there. I commented to the Command Master Chief who stated, "that the point was to get the young Sailors to come to the event".
It is especially challenging to encourage responsible risk management when you are displaying as an appetizer the extreme spectrum of the sport at a safety event.
Another example The Navy came up with a magazine call "Smart Ride" In one of the first issues they show racer ben spies conducting a wheelie on what is likely a track. Why would the Navy encourage the average Sailor to ride on the track and practice wheelies, or use the "safety center" as the vehicle to promote the sport? http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/me...e/SmartRide/ |
Edited by - here2learn on 03/31/2010 12:19 PM |
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DataDan
Standard Member
200 Posts
[Mentor]
Central Coast, CA
USA
Honda
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Posted - 03/31/2010 : 1:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by here2learn
"Is there an alternative that has been demonstrated to reduce injuries and deaths among any riding population?" No, and neither has the industry sponsored training, in fact, we could say it has been proven ineffective.
The California Program Evaluation reported a reduction in crashes for MSF-trained riders among the least experienced (<500mi prior to training), though no reduction for those with more experience.
quote:
I suspect that from the Navy's perspective as well as states and other interested stakeholders the point is "We know popular training increases fatalities(still in denial despite the facts), but what else can we do?"
I know of no study that has reported an increase in fatality rate after MSF training.
quote:
Here is a gem of a quote from a CA report "In 2007, 41,059 people were killed and 2,490,000 were injured nationwide in motor vehicle crashes. Recent national data published by NHTSA indicate that deaths and injuries attributable to motorcycle crashes are becoming a larger portion of this serious public health problem. Motorcyclist fatalities have been increasing since 1997, and motorcyclists injured have been increasing since 1999.
Since 1997, the number of registered motorcycles in the US has doubled. Yes, there are more deaths, but they have been driven primarily by growth in the sport. Secondarily, they have been driven by an increase in fatality rate per registered motorcycle--though the peak rate in recent years (which occurred in 2005) was still well below the highs of the 1970s and 80s. The rate has fallen since 2005.
quote:
Step 1: Admit that MIC sponsored training is not working
Step 2: Stop doing what isn't working just so we can say we are doing something.
Step 3: Discourage behaviors that increase fatalities and encourage behaviors that decrease them.
Step 4: Look for and seriously consider alternatives to the industry standard.
The $64,000 question in rider training is how do you train riders to reduce crash risk? MSF is a convenient target as the virtual monopoly supplier in the US, but there is no evidence that their performance is any different than programs elsewhere in the world. |
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here2learn
New Member
15 Posts
san diego, ca
USA
Yamaha
Virago
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Posted - 03/31/2010 : 5:21 PM
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Datadan,
While MSF training has enjoyed a virtual monopoly,
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811149.PDF
Please, read the conclusions, over a 10 year period Injuries increased 110% overall, while registrations increased only 84%.
Experienced motorcyclist injuries increase 26% with training.
New riders injuries increase 84% with training
The research you linked does show some effectiveness for new riders and it is this research that I use as evidence that rider training should focus on riders with less than a year of experience.
We could argue that with a 110% increase over 10 years riders would have been less at risk, without training, especially those with over a year of experience.
I understand my comments are not easily digestable. Again it is not the number of fatalities but the rate per population sample, that is telling.
The Navy rates and civilian rates correlate well since the Navy manages the program exactly as recommended by the motorcycle industry. |
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gymnast
Moderator
2814 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 03/31/2010 : 5:45 PM
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There is, in my opinion, a considerable conceptual difference between facilitating the safe entry of a new participant into a extremely high risk activity, and facilitating the entry of a new customer to a high risk activity so as to enable the sale of a product that carries a high risk of injury if improperly used. Few products have greater potential and likelihood of involvement resulting in injury to the user over the course of ownership than is possessed by a motorized two wheeled vehicle.
The motorcycle industry has involved itself with training new operators to the virtual exclusion of all other options. It is my opinion that the industry standard for training is, in the main, deficient in quality, inadequate in content, self serving to the motorcycle industry and negligent to the extent that an unknown number of students participating in the "safety training" of the Motorcycle Safety Foundation "certified programs" have been seriously injured or died during instruction. |
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DataDan
Standard Member
200 Posts
[Mentor]
Central Coast, CA
USA
Honda
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Posted - 03/31/2010 : 8:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by here2learn
(link to NHTSA Research Note, "Motorcyclists Injured...")
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811149.PDF
Please, read the conclusions, over a 10 year period Injuries increased 110% overall, while registrations increased only 84%.
The US injury rate per registered motorcycle (based on NHTSA's estimates of annual injuries) dropped sharply from the late '80s to the mid '90s and has been roughly flat for the past 10 years. However, it is possible to pick endpoints that show an increase (or decrease), and that's what NHTSA's author did in that report. To see the complete picture, look at the injury rates in Table 10 of NHTSA's Traffic Safety Facts 2008. You will notice that the 2007 injury estimate of 103,000 (used in the Research Note) is anomalous, since it is sharply higher than 2006 and moderately higher than 2008, and there was no corresponding spike in deaths.
Regardless, the trend in overall injury rate or fatality rate or crash rate can't be correlated with training because there's no way of knowing whether or not injured riders were trained.
quote:
Experienced motorcyclist injuries increase 26% with training.
New riders injuries increase 84% with training
Would you please provide a source for that?
quote:
I understand my comments are not easily digestable.
Our basic disagreement isn't on the efficacy of training as measured by crash rates. I think we agree it doesn't "work" by that measure. However, I don't believe that the fault is with the particular training curriculum under discussion, but more generally with our understanding of the potential and limits of training. |
Edited by - DataDan on 03/31/2010 9:17 PM |
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here2learn
New Member
15 Posts
san diego, ca
USA
Yamaha
Virago
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Posted - 03/31/2010 : 9:46 PM
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Dan,
Thank you for being reasonable.
Those stats were from the conclusions of the link I previously provided "In the past 10 years (1998-2007), motorcyclists injured in crashes have increased at a higher rate than the increase in motorcycle registrations (110% versus 84%)." I may be a little stretch to say new registrations are strictly new riders, but we need something objective to measure and I think it is fair as most new registrations are new riders.
I agree that prior to MIC training becoming the monopoly (prior to the mid-late 1990's) there was a drop in the number of fatalities as a result of training, but prior to the 1990's the number of riders was declining, the rate at least in CA was still increasing.
Please read gymnast's post above to which I will provide a hearty "Amen".
Perhaps we simply cannot agree, but what a valuable debate. |
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