| Member |
 Discussion Topic  |
|
|
gymnast
Moderator
2814 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
|
 Posted - 11/26/2008 : 9:40 PM
|
How much does it cost to insure a participant in a basic course? Or put another way what is the average cost per student for insurance cover in the various states? What does the insurance cover and what are the limits of coverage? If a student is injured in a course, how is the medical cost of the injury covered.
I ask these questions because I know exactly what my motorcycle insurance covers, the policy limits, and exactly what it costs.
Does a student taking a basic or experienced riders course have any idea of their status regarding insurance cover if they are injured while in the course? When we recommend that a student take a course to learn to ride, are we aware of what we may be getting them into if they are injured?
Do those among us, who are current instructors,have specific knowledge about these questions and similar possible matters of concern? Are there possible wide variations between states as regards these matters.
And lastly, what % of the persons taking a basic rider course have no medical insurance cover, what-so-ever, of their own while going through a course?
A few random thoughts.
|
|
|
aidanspa
 Advanced Member
1458 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Harley-Davidson
Heritage Softail
|
Posted - 11/28/2008 : 9:59 AM
|
I know what my motorcycle policy covers, the limits, & its costs as well. And, I have health insurance coverage through my employer.
I admit, though, that when I signed the liability waiver prior to starting my BRC, I gave it only a cursory glance. If I had been in an accident during BRC which required medical treatment or hospital expense, what kind of coverage would I have had? Nothing?
Wow, how stupid and irresponsible was I?
Is it incumbent on instructors/coaches to make sure each student has a clear understanding of what they are getting into as it relates to injuries/insurance? Or is it a case of caveat emptor? I mean, we're dealing with adults who sign agreements everyday...
|
 |
|
|
dhalen32
Moderator
644 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Buell
XB12X Ulysses
|
Posted - 11/29/2008 : 9:14 PM
|
Gymnast:
I can tell you about Nebraska and Rider's Edge. The state requires an annual certificate of insurance for $2,000,000 of liability coverage for any site wishing to operate in the state. We are asked to send a copy to our state administrator every year.
Rider's Edge requires it's sites to carry a $5,000,000 policy. However, they have never requested to see proof after our initial start-up.
I use the MSF brokered insurance for my program and believe that my cost is identical to any other Rider's Edge provider in the country using the MSF insurance plan. I paid $0.87 per class and $9.00 per student for the policy coverage in 2008. The cost was the same for BRC or ERC classes and students. The policy also has a small amount of coverage, I believe $10,000, for medical expenses for those students who do not have their own health care insurance if they are injured. I have had one student come to me after breaking his foot asking for me to pay his medical expenses and I used this additional insurance to cover his emergency room costs for treatment.
Dave
|
|
|
|
gymnast
Moderator
2814 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
|
Posted - 12/01/2008 : 6:19 PM
|
Dave, what type of insurance does the $9.00 and the 87cents cover? The amounts of liability cover indicate that there is the possibility for a substantial claim. Who covers the cost of an instructors defense if sued for negligence? I assume the program provider (state agency) defense is covered by the liability policy. Or is the policy covering the MSF?
I am obviously a bit uncertain as to what coverage exists once you get from the state agency level to the designated provider level to the site level to the individual class.
For instance, are the motorcycles used in the program insured for collision and theft? Is there a deductible? |
|
|
|
dhalen32
Moderator
644 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Buell
XB12X Ulysses
|
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 7:21 AM
|
Gymnast:
I pulled out the certificate of liability insurance and here is what I can see we have for coverage:
Commercial general liability - $2,000,000 each occurrence
Damage to rented premises - $100,000 each occurrence
Personal and Adv injury - $2,000,000
General Aggregate - $2,000,000
Products - Comp/Op Agg - $2,000,000
Policy Cap - $20,000,000
Excess/Umbrella Liability - $5,000,000 each occurrence
Aggregate - $5,000,000
Prod/Co - $5,000,000
Medical insurance is also provided in an additional rider and reads: AD&D principal sum: $10,000 w/$50 deduct; Dental: $1,000 w/$50 deduct
Professional Liabilty for Instructors is included
In the 6 years we have been operating I have used this insurance coverage twice. The first time, a student who had crashed and injured an ankle approached me for money to help with his medical expenses. I provided him with a form documenting his accident and honestly never heard from him again. I assume he filed a claim with the insurance company using the claim form I provided to him. The form read like a policy designed for injuries incurred during organized athletic/training events. The second incident was a property damage claim where a riderless motorcycle went "offrange" and ran into the door of our parts manger's car. The insurance covered the body repairs to the car.
I hope this helps answer your questions.
Dave
|
|
|
|
gymnast
Moderator
2814 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
|
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 8:48 AM
|
| Dave, looks like you "have it covered". Thanks for the details. Your minimal claims history speaks well of your program and the care exercised during the conduct of training. |
|
|
|
dhalen32
Moderator
644 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Buell
XB12X Ulysses
|
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 9:32 AM
|
Gymnast:
You are welcome.
Sometimes I wonder if we are good or just lucky regarding claims history. Most of our incidents are "stopped drops" followed in frequency by overuse of the front brake and the inevitable fall that results. The scariest ones are the panic-stricken students who alternately throttle-brake-throttle-brake and finally fall or those who simply wind on the throttle and do nothing else you have taught them about using the brakes, clutch or engine cutoff switch to regain control.
One of the great things about Rider's Edge, in my opinion, is that it is mandatory to document an incident in writing anytime that a bike falls and touches the ground with other than it's tires or sidestand. At the close of every class I thus read every one of my Instructor's incident reports and it allows me to see trends and take action if a certain exercise or Instructor needs to be looked at.
A few years ago, as a result of my incident reports review, I added an emphasis on front brake application practice between exercise 1 and 2 prior to the students moving their machines under power. I then saw a decline in the frequency of crashes due to overapplication of the front brake after "retraining" my staff. The words were there on the range cards to do it all along but it was being skipped by many of the Instructors as too time consuming or unnecessary.
I have to add that I'm also an advocate of curbed ranges that either "awaken" the frozen rider or eject them from the bike rather than continue off range until they calm down and regain control or run into something solid that can hurt them more severely.
In my opinion, a blown engine or personal injury from a vertical fall to the ground is preferable to impacting a building, vehicle, tree or pole at higher speed.
Dave |
|
|
|
gymnast
Moderator
2814 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
|
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 9:53 AM
|
Dave, the "more good" you are, the less "lucky" you need to be. But luck or chance is sometimes needed.
Your point about curbed ranges is something that I never gave much thought, however I can see your thinking as having merit, in a last resort scenario. Too bad we don't have an "electronic dog fence" that would safeguard against a runaway by killing the ignition. On the other hand it wouldn't require much rocket science to develop one, at least for research purposes.
It wouldn't be too hard for the industry to develop standards for an "ideal beginner-training bike" either, if the the industry was serious about it. |
|
|
|
Night Train
Moderator
1336 Posts
[Mentor]
Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada
Harley-Davidson
03 Electra Glide Std
|
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 12:00 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by gymnast
Dave, the "more good" you are, the less "lucky" you need to be. But luck or chance is sometimes needed.
Your point about curbed ranges is something that I never gave much thought, however I can see your thinking as having merit, in a last resort scenario. Too bad we don't have an "electronic dog fence" that would safeguard against a runaway by killing the ignition. On the other hand it wouldn't require much rocket science to develop one, at least for research purposes.
It wouldn't be too hard for the industry to develop standards for an "ideal beginner-training bike" either, if the the industry was serious about it.
This is an interesting concept and as you say, it won't take rocket science to implement. I believe go-kart tracks have a wireless set up that can shut down the engine of any of the cars from a control panel. This is to safeguard against reckless riders or runaway cars. Shouldn't be hard to adapt to motorcycles on a training course. Just a thought. |
|
|
|
House_of_Dexter
Standard Member
167 Posts
Richardson, Tx
USA
Kawasaki
2007 Ex-500
|
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 9:38 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by dhalen32
Gymnast:
The scariest ones are the panic-stricken students who alternately throttle-brake-throttle-brake and finally fall or those who simply wind on the throttle and do nothing else you have taught them about using the brakes, clutch or engine cutoff switch to regain control.
When I was taking my BRC...We had a student do exactly that...and it was scary...Watching her buck the bike back and forth...forgetting everything...She luckily remembered to grab the clutch before slamming into a 2 foot Pipe fence... |
|
|
|
biocoach
Senior Member
259 Posts
Falls Church, Va
USA
GAS GAS
280
|
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 4:36 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by gymnast
It wouldn't be too hard for the industry to develop standards for an "ideal beginner-training bike" either, if the the industry was serious about it.
Like the old Honda cb125T's? We still use them at Quantico even though they rolled off the line in 1991. Too bad that the training market by itself couldn't support them. I've even heard talk of our venerable eliminator 125's being put out to pasture. |
|
|
|
dhalen32
Moderator
644 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Buell
XB12X Ulysses
|
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 5:04 PM
|
Biocoach:
Those are pretty good. We still have some alive and kicking here in Nebraska. My personal favorite was the Suzuki GN125 from the same time period. Suzuki has announced a new small standard called a TU250 that looks to be competitive with the Nighthawk 250 from Honda. I believe it is fuel injected and it might even have a front disk brake instead of that Honda drum.
Dave
|
|
|
|
biocoach
Senior Member
259 Posts
Falls Church, Va
USA
GAS GAS
280
|
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 5:10 PM
|
| Capt Crash is getting a few of those in Colorado. We're sadly getting the hyosung 250's at quantico to replace our aging fleet. I'll let you know how it works for both of us. |
|
|
| |
Discussion Topic |
|
|
Most Recent Posts
|
Activity History
|
Safety Tips
What Insurance coverage exists during training?