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Night Train
 Moderator
1332 Posts
[Mentor]
Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada
Harley-Davidson
03 Electra Glide Std
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 Posted - 11/01/2009 : 12:33 PM
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In the topic VA Crash and Report the subject of fixation has come up and one poster referred to an incident with the Thunderbirds Air Team and used that as an example of fixation. It was pointed out that "fixation" was an ingredient to formation flying where close quarters demand others in the formation to fixate on the lead plane.
In the world of motorcycling and in driving any motor vehicle, fixation can lead to disaster. Having said that, there are times when we utilize "fixation" to our benefit but even then it can come at some risk.
For an example, to get this topic moving, driving in a snow storm, very poor visibility, the car ahead seems to know the road well and is driving in a safe and prudent manner. Some drivers will fixate on that vehicle and use it as a lead to get them to a place where they can pull off. This action may prove beneficial on a roadway one is not familiar with under adverse conditions, but also runs the risk that the driver you are fixated on may not possess the skills you have attributed to him. Should he go in the ditch, would you not follow?
What are your views on fixation as it relates to riding a motorcycle?
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Niebor
Ex-Member
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Posted - 11/01/2009 : 2:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Night Train
...we utilize "fixation" to our benefit but even then it can come at some risk.
For an example, to get this topic moving, driving in a snow storm, very poor visibility, the car ahead seems to know the road well and is driving in a safe and prudent manner. Some drivers will fixate on that vehicle and use it as a lead to get them to a place where they can pull off. This action may prove beneficial on a roadway one is not familiar with under adverse conditions, but also runs the risk that the driver you are fixated on may not possess the skills you have attributed to him. Should he go in the ditch, would you not follow?
What are your views on fixation as it relates to riding a motorcycle?
Sensible riders obviously avoid riding on snow. Fog might be another example. I'm trying to limit riding in blizzards to 4 wheels, so far I've managed a bit under once per year. I'll let you know how that goes... 
Your example does strike a nerve. In low visibility situation I tend to fixate on getting a car properly positioned on my six. I can deal with what the vehicle in front of me does, if I don't let the Suburban on my six be an excessive distraction. Catch-22. I do find it nerve racking, keeping the one length on my six, from closing that gap. And yes, on snowpack, I do tend ride a motorcycle about half the speed I drive a car or truck. And Yes, I realize that when I screw up like that, riding in such conditions, I invite that behavior. 
The good news is the third car usually hangs back, if only out of curiosity.  |
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Night Train
Moderator
1332 Posts
[Mentor]
Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada
Harley-Davidson
03 Electra Glide Std
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Posted - 11/01/2009 : 4:21 PM
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Good points Neibor. I should point out in the example I gave about driving in a snow storm, I meant driving a car. I normally drive my 4 wheel vehicles and ride my bikes 
One instance of fixation I can use in my motorcycle experience is a couple years ago when I was leading 4 other bikes around a section of the Cabot Trail. When we neared Smokey Mountain from the top, we ran into an extremely heavy fog with nearly zero visibiltiy. I looked for the lookoff at the top of the mountain that would permit us the room to pull over as I wasn't about to take the group down the mountain in those conditions without discussing it first. Well the visibility was so poor, I couldn't see the sign nor the lookoff, and realized we were beginning our descent by the feel of the front wheel banking down to the left. At this point if I stayed about a foot inside the center line I could just barely see the line. Beyond that was a sheer wall of fog all around. I could barely see the headlight of the bike behind me at times. I couldn't see the others. I put on my four way flashers as I felt the flashing amber lights might be a bit more visible in the fog that the headlight and tail light. We managed to crawl down the mountain and negotiated the hairpins at a slow painstaking pace hoping any oncoming traffic would not venture over the line as evading same could easily have put us into a solid rock wall. Once we got clear of the mountain, the fog dissipated somewhat and we were able to pull off into a parking lot. The general concensus of the other riders I was with was that they were fixated on my 4 way flashers. When they lost sight of them they were lost and did what was needed to keep them in view. My thought at the time was that had I screwed up and hit the wall, we probably all would have hit the wall. It was definitely one of the few riding experiences I wouldn't want to repeat.
When it comes to winter riding, I handle that quite simply. I don't ride in snow or ice or ride once salt is on the roadways. |
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Axiom2000
Moderator
968 Posts
[Mentor]
Georgetown, Delaware
USA
BMW
R1200RT/ R1200C
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Posted - 11/01/2009 : 5:15 PM
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| Seems to me a good practice is to use fixation to your benefit. How many times have we heard look where you want to go. When I first began riding I had a fear of making left turns at an intersection, I was afraid I was going to it the curb on the opposite side of the street. I use to stare at it intently and sure enough I would miss it by inches once just kissing it. I soon learned to fixate on the middle of my intended lane, problem solved. |
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galileo
Ex-Member
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Posted - 11/01/2009 : 6:34 PM
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A long time ago as a kid, I read about advice given to a race car driver. If you don't want to hit the wall, don't look at it.
In a really bad situation, when it seems certain one will hit something, the best thing to do is look to your escape route and ignore the object. Either you will hit it or you won't. (I'm assuming a situation where you aren't maximum braking.)
This advice works well in a car, too. |
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DataDan
Standard Member
198 Posts
[Mentor]
Central Coast, CA
USA
Honda
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Posted - 11/01/2009 : 8:21 PM
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The term target fixation is often used to explain a crash where a rider runs off the road in a curve without steering. The theory is that vision is so deeply connected with the physical act of steering that by looking at the hazard he's about to hit--maybe a guardrail or a tree--rather than at the road that will avoid the hazard, the rider is unable to steer the bike. But I think there's another factor involved, too: lack of a deeply ingrained countersteering reaction.
I once got myself into situation where, in a blind right turn on a narrow road, an oncoming vehicle was using more pavement than it should have. Thinking back, what I remember about my thought process is looking at the threat--exactly what I shouldn't have been looking at. But what I did was press on the right bar to reach the narrow strip of roadway between the oncoming vehicle and the dirt. In spite of my visual mistake, my muscle reaction got me out of trouble. My conclusion is that there's more to "target fixation" crashes than just a visual fault. It's also a lack of the necessary physical reaction.
The value of the "press right to go right" mantra is realized when the action is repeated so often that you no longer have to think about it; it just happens. I found that cone weaves and swerve drills really helped develop my countersteering instinct. And consciously countersteering in every turn helps reinforce it. In my early days of riding 25 years ago or so, I knew about countersteering but found that most of the time the bike seemed to get around bends without me thinking too much about it (I'm not saying I wasn't countersteering, just that I wasn't thinking about it). But I eventually discovered the advantage of consciously using it for every change of direction. Not only do I control the bike more precisely, it pays off in emergencies because the reaction comes from a deeper level and seems to occur automatically. |
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greywolf
Advanced Member
677 Posts
[Mentor]
Evanston, IL
USA
Suzuki
DL650AK7
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bachman1961
Advanced Member
1395 Posts
[Mentor]
colorado springs, co
USA
Honda
CB750 NightHawk
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Posted - 11/02/2009 : 1:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by DataDan
The term target fixation is often used to explain a crash where a rider runs off the road in a curve without steering. The theory is that vision is so deeply connected with the physical act of steering that by looking at the hazard he's about to hit--maybe a guardrail or a tree--rather than at the road that will avoid the hazard, the rider is unable to steer the bike. But I think there's another factor involved, too: lack of a deeply ingrained counter steering reaction.
After reading this, I think of the mental image as one would have coming into a curve to their left. Lets say they notice something that gets their attention up ahead on the right edge of the road.... a dead cat (dog if you like cats).
Their immediate thought might be;
" okay, that's on the outside of what should be my line and I won't hit it if I don't go wide "
By now, they are not influencing the turn input correctly (enough counter-steer pressure) and end up exactly where they intended not to.
This makes me think of a 'Red Herring' ... that our processing is not taking place fast enough to cut to the chase ... making the turn as we would normally and not having to effect a tighter line in the first place.
By virtue of being there, the dead cat hijacked the riders attention long enough to make it a problem where non really existed. This 'delay' caused stronger turn inputs to become necessary in the fractions of a second the rider was hijacked. He or she will hit it or come darn close.
I do agree with Dan... the counter steer skill should be an essential part of our tool bag as scanning, PLP, continued practice of braking skills etc...
(Since all stories should have a happy ending, the dead cat was a stuffed animal).
~brian
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bachman1961
Advanced Member
1395 Posts
[Mentor]
colorado springs, co
USA
Honda
CB750 NightHawk
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Posted - 11/02/2009 : 2:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Night Train
For an example, to get this topic moving, driving in a snow storm, very poor visibility, the car ahead seems to know the road well and is driving in a safe and prudent manner. Some drivers will fixate on that vehicle and use it as a lead to get them to a place where they can pull off. This action may prove beneficial on a roadway one is not familiar with under adverse conditions, but also runs the risk that the driver you are fixated on may not possess the skills you have attributed to him. Should he go in the ditch, would you not follow?
What are your views on fixation as it relates to riding a motorcycle?
NT;
Your episode/description of the Smokey Mtn ride was hair raising.
If I'm not on a familiar road and I'm caught in the midst of severe fog or white out conditions, my first two priorities are to follow taillights as safe a distance as I can get and look for the first lot or pull off opportunity I can find if one exists .. one that gets me out of harms way from trailing motorists. Basically, quit driving. Short of that option, I'd assume the leading vehicle does not know the road well and keep my distance to a variation of not quite loosing sight of them and maintaining a lengthy following distance. Use them as my guide and figure there is as much chance they will show me where not to go as there is that they keep it between the lines. My hope would be that I can judge the situation the lead vehicle gets into and still have time to stop, slow or make adjustments to my direction of travel if they go into the drink or a ditch or ? ? ?
This is a situation of hoping for the best and hanging it out there a bit once you realize what you are into.
My only caveat would be turning and going the way I came if it was a matter of being in the soup or white out for five or ten minutes and I thought I might have a good chance of driving back out of it versus a continuing long duration. There might have been a pull off back the other way I already passed before it got bad and I might go back to find it and sit things out.
One other item that would influence me is if I'm driving out of cell tower areas where my phone signal is getting weaker or would be compromised. My direction of travel might be based on that alone.
* Good topic
~brian
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Night Train
Moderator
1332 Posts
[Mentor]
Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada
Harley-Davidson
03 Electra Glide Std
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Posted - 11/02/2009 : 5:55 AM
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Brian, you give sound advice. In the Cape Smokey situation, the fog was so thick that visibility was next to zero. When we had passed the look off, we had basically come to the point of no return. Without knowing what was behind us, I couldn't take the chance of stopping and trying to turn around. The road is one lane in each direction and very steep and winding and we were descending with a view of about a foot or so at a time. We knew what our surroundings were and that added to the seriousness of the situation. On the other side of the road (water side) there is little or no shoulder and only a guardrail between the road and a drop of over 1200 feet. On our side of the road was a sheer rock wall, shallow ditch and a very small eroded gravel shoulder. A GPS or Cell phone would not have helped as I couldn't take my eyes off the center line. If I had lost sight of that line I would have been totally lost and disorientated in the dense fog.
I guess part of the strain, when I think about it, is that I was fixated on the yellow line but had to consciously control my direction so that I ran beside the line and not toward or across it. |
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bachman1961
Advanced Member
1395 Posts
[Mentor]
colorado springs, co
USA
Honda
CB750 NightHawk
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Posted - 11/02/2009 : 6:25 AM
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Night Train;
Sounded to me like you did just fine.
My response was not considering the group situation you were in so as a Lone Ranger, we'd have more options or at least be gambling with the lower stakes of just ourselves and a known risk tolerance versus the group. I liked the story and problem you presented as it gives us those preparation for pucker moment; what if's ?
As for myself, I'm more of a visual type so these story problems help me forecast a tool kit of sorts as I can imagine potential scenarios that I have yet to encounter but want to be at the ready for that day.
Additionally, I'll go on record to say that the two riders I meet up with are two that I would trust following taillights to the gates of H E Toothpicks.
Not saying I'd walk right through those gates, at least not without first checking to see they had my reservation. 
~brian |
Edited by - bachman1961 on 11/02/2009 6:30 AM |
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AKRefugee
Junior Member
77 Posts
Ramona, CA
USA
Yamaha
Venture
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Posted - 11/02/2009 : 11:01 PM
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Fixation can be a two edged sword, and it can even be "weird". A few years back we were in a convoy of ex-military equipment going through Isabel pass in Alaska. A whiteout developed and all you could do was follow the lights of the vehicle in front of you. We could only do about 10 miles per hour at best and would occasionally bump the vehicle in front of us. The lead truck was a deuce and half and it drove off the road. We all followed that truck until he got stuck about 100 feet off the roadway. All six of us were off the road and stuck. The next day when they found us and pulled us back the road with bulldozers we found out that an avalanche had covered the road about three miles from where we were. Who knows, had we stayed on the road we might have been hit by it. Must say though that seeing those trucks way out in the tundra and so far from the road like that sure was a strange sight when the weather was clear the next day.
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