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abnsmurf
 Starting Member
1 Posts
Fort Bragg, NC
USA
Harley-Davidson
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 Posted - 11/04/2009 : 8:37 AM
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I disagree with the female only class concept. As both a Ridercoach and a soldier I find that catering to any specific group sets a bad example. If a private organization wishes to promote an all female class that is their choice but the military (regardless of the rank of the person who instituted it)should stay away from making this a standard to be followed. And to be frank, if a woman (or a man for that matter) allows herself to be intimidated by a bunch of other students, then she does not need to be there.
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James R. Davis
Administrator
14930 Posts
[Mentor]
Houston, TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing 1500
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Posted - 11/04/2009 : 9:25 AM
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Welcome to the site and thanks for your first post here.
I am particularly impressed with your thought about people who are otherwise intimidated 'by a bunch of other students' as being, perhaps, in the wrong place to begin with.
There is much to be intimidated by when learning to ride a motorcycle. That's part of the real world. Providing them a way to avoid being 'special' or 'different' and making then, instead, learn just like everybody else, is not a cruel or unjustified mandate.
Getting special treatment because a person feels 'inadequate' sounds an awful lot like political correctness to me. Along those same lines why not host special classes for the Irish, or virgins, or drug addicted, or homosexuals, or Islamists?
Said differently, which group of people would scream the loudest if you held men only classes? Would they have a point? |
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Niebor
Ex-Member
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Posted - 11/04/2009 : 11:55 AM
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Whew! Welcome back James, we missed you.
Talk about mixed emotions. On the other hand, I'm all in favor of gals starting out in whatever environment they are comfortable with. If the class is full, it's full, who cares what the gender composition is. I can't say I'd mind being the male rider they fill in the gap with. 
If it helps, I'll promise to drop the motorcycle at least one time. 
I could care less if a class is offered for all guys, all gals or all of a given race or sexual orientation. If you choose to set it up that way, so be it. I can choose to participate, or not.
On a tangent, I think the business owner should be able to run their business the way they see fit. The government obviously has a few things to say in that regard as well.
FWIW, I think the white American male is the most discriminated against sector in the country. |
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Axiom2000
Moderator
973 Posts
[Mentor]
Georgetown, Delaware
USA
BMW
R1200RT/ R1200C
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Posted - 11/04/2009 : 1:58 PM
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quote:
I disagree with the female only class concept. As both a Ridercoach and a soldier I find that catering to any specific group sets a bad example. If a private organization wishes to promote an all female class that is their choice but the military (regardless of the rank of the person who instituted it)should stay away from making this a standard to be followed. And to be frank, if a woman (or a man for that matter) allows herself to be intimidated by a bunch of other students, then she does not need to be there.
While I respect your opinion I am in vivid disagreement with it. I understand how attitudes may be different in the military, I have taught some classes to military and can sense in general a higher level of respect for the learning and more dedication and motivation. I have also taught a number of civilian all ladies classes and countless mixed BRC's I can tell you without a doubt the ladies are more relaxed and perform better when with their own. I am not one to provide for any special preferences for any class, we teach the all ladies to the same standard as any class. |
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James R. Davis
Administrator
14930 Posts
[Mentor]
Houston, TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing 1500
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Posted - 11/04/2009 : 2:54 PM
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| If the all ladies class was in any way other than its composition of students different than a mixed composition class, then there would be justification for hosting these 'special purpose' classes. The purpose of the BRC is NOT to teach people how to deal with gender problems - it is to teach the fundamentals of motorcycle riding. |
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Niebor
Ex-Member
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Posted - 11/04/2009 : 3:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis
If the all ladies class was in any way other than its composition of students different than a mixed composition class, then there would be justification for hosting these 'special purpose' classes. The purpose of the BRC is NOT to teach people how to deal with gender problems - it is to teach the fundamentals of motorcycle riding.
Indeed. I agree in principal. However the real world seems to have gals more nervous in the presence of the egotistical male figure. If they are simply more comfortable learning among other gals, I'm all in favor. Indeed, they will probably wind up practicing in a testosterone-laden environment anyhow. 
LOL, I can't wait to see what Cash has to say about this one. |
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Axiom2000
Moderator
973 Posts
[Mentor]
Georgetown, Delaware
USA
BMW
R1200RT/ R1200C
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Posted - 11/04/2009 : 4:40 PM
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quote:
The purpose of the BRC is NOT to teach people how to deal with gender problems - it is to teach the fundamentals of motorcycle riding.
I can't disagree with that, however it sure is nice while teaching the fundamentals of motorcycle riding to not have to deal with problems gender differences can cause. In an environment where ego, pressure, stress and emotions are all present removing any cause for more problems is not a bad thing. Don't want to make a bigger deal of this than it's worthy of. I just don't think it's that big of a issue really. If the all ladies class works for some ladies and they learn better in that environment what's the problem? |
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Chicka_Dee
 Junior Member
82 Posts
Durham Region, Ontario
Canada
Suzuki
S50, Yamaha YP400
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Posted - 11/04/2009 : 9:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by abnsmurf
And to be frank, if a woman (or a man for that matter) allows herself to be intimidated by a bunch of other students, then she does not need to be there.
So if I've read you right, if a woman is intimidated by a bunch of male students (assuming it is because she "allowed" the intimidation, rather than the bunch of male students having anything at all to do with the intimidation), then she is somehow not qualified to learn to ride a motorcycle (as in, she does not need to be there)? Because I thought learning to ride a motorcycle is what we are talking about here. I did not realize that putting up with unnecessary intimidation was a requirement of learning this set of skills.
Let me put this as kindly as I can. The women who wish to attend women's only motorcycle courses neither require, nor do they likely care about, your and others' approval of them. It is downright amusing to see the very fine fellows here deciding whether or not it is justified for women to attend women's only motorcycle courses.  Women will do so if they want to, and if that is the kind of course they want, they will flock to the organizations that offer these courses.
I am with Axiom2000 here. If the ladies only class works better for the women, what is the problem? From a motorcycle safety perspective, if women's only classes mean that more women are taking the safety classes than might have otherwise, and that they are getting more out of the classes and learning better as Axiom2000 has observed, then isn't that is a good thing?
quote:
Originally posted by Niebor
FWIW, I think the white American male is the most discriminated against sector in the country.
Niebor, I have always valued your comments. But I do not see how the discussion at hand merits this very loaded, political statement. |
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Night Train
Moderator
1335 Posts
[Mentor]
Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada
Harley-Davidson
03 Electra Glide Std
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 6:46 AM
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In respect to the OP's comments, I would agree with him if the training were part of the Military Training Curriculum in respect to Military duties. Regardless of gender, one would ideally be treated as a Soldier, Marine, or Air Person, whatever the appropriate classification is. However, it is my understanding that Motorcycle Training is for recreational purposes and the training was implemented along with on-base rules relating to motorcycle riding and apparel, to reduce the number of casualties service members have sustained as a result of this recreational activity.
If that is indeed the case, then if one is engaged in training for a non-military activity, they should be allowed to do so in a manner that is most comfortable for them. That should apply whether it is the Military supplying that training or not. The program was not designed to make good service people, it was designed to extend the good health and lives of service people as they engage in the activity of motorcycle riding in their leisure time.
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dhalen32
Moderator
644 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Buell
XB12X Ulysses
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 7:04 AM
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Abnsmurf:
Sorry. I also disagree with you. Like anything else, I don't think it needs to be done in excess or the extreme but different students learn in different ways. A person's gender is just another one of those differences and like it or not our society manages nicely at treating people differently based upon which sex they happen to have been born. By the time a BRC student comes to us their learning style and other biases have long been established and it is our job to identify and meet their educational needs in a relatively short period of time. If a student feels the need to be in a class where everyone is the same sex and it aids in their ability to absorb the information presented why exactly is this a bad thing?
Different learning styles or types is one of the more difficult concepts to get across to candidates who wish to become teachers of the BRC (and most likely other motorcycle courses as well). I agree with Axiom2000 that if same sex classes works for some students, what exactly is the harm in holding a few women's only classes? My program offers a couple of them a season and the women who take and teach them all seem to enjoy the concept and their experience. It is important to state here that they do this by choice; not because I force them to do so.
I run a Rider's Edge program and we have a very structured student feedback system so I get to read each student's comments about their experience in one of our courses. From reading these comments and feedback it is clear to me that not everyone sees a situation in the same way. As a RiderCoach I have experienced first hand how different people learn in different ways. There really is no one-size-fits-all methodology despite the administrative desire for it to be that way. It would certainly be easier for myself personally (and every other RiderCoach out there) if that were the case.
Before all of you traditional "spare the rod and spoil the child" types get in an uproar I am not advocating lower standards, affirmative action type testing, etc. Every student, regardless of sex or learning type, needs to be able to meet an exercise objective before moving on to the next one and when the time for the testing arrives they need to pass each evaluation as specified before I will present them with a completion card. If they cannot meet an exercise objective they are sent home and if they fail either test they go home without a completion card. It's just that simple.
Sorry, I'll get off of the soapbox now. 
Dave
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James R. Davis
Administrator
14930 Posts
[Mentor]
Houston, TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing 1500
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 7:49 AM
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It appears to me that the urge to be seen as 'Gallant' and open minded has led a few of you to draw inappropriate conclusions here.
I ask again, if you dared to create a male only BRC class, how long do you think it would take before you received legal notice of a discrimination charge? Would that charge have merit?
Perhaps it is that I have read and heard a large number of absolutely convoluted excuses and rationales from motorcyclists involved in accidents, but it would not surprise me in the least to have a few of YOU Rider Coaches called as material witnesses in a case where a female graduate of one of your mixed gender classes gets involved in an accident and claims that it was due, in part, because you did not train her or provide her training in a gender specific class. You will be called because you published (HERE) an opinion that supports her claim.
Rubbish! You are not social workers. You are not trained to help a person work through their gender specific issues. You are fooling yourself if you are male and believe that you can 'understand' this issue from a female point of view. If they (females) next claim that it would be more appropriate for them to be taught by female Rider Coaches, what 'leg' would you have left to stand on then?
You seem to think that because it is a 'voluntary' (again, rubbish!) activity, a recreational activity, that discrimination is not valid. Tell that to Country Club owners or ANY other provider of a service FOR A FEE. (You DO charge for your services, no?)
I quite agree that as an individual you can decide who you wish to provide your teaching to, but as an agent of the state you DO NOT.
But you are 'nice guys' - rather 'Gallant', after all. |
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gymnast
Moderator
2807 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 8:59 AM
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I do not see any gender problems in teaching a class, however I do see significant problems where long time riders seeking a license are mixed in with or make up a majority of a class and only one or two of the students are actually "never been on a bike before first time newbies" and the instructor, rather than teaching the newbies to ride, finds it easier to "go with the flow".
As originally conceived, beginning rider courses were designed for persons who had 0 riding experience and, because the idea of a license waiver was not part of the equation and it was rare that persons with any significant riding experience took the course. The avarage age of the students tended to be in the teens and 20s because that was the age of the majority of entry level riders in the 1960s and 70s. Every student was as much as possible treated equally and with respect with regards to the course. Any instructor who treated a student differently on the basis of age, gender, or "experience" was out of line.
A gender specific course is, in my opinion simply a marketing idea, and if it works fine. But what is really accomplished by the course that is in any way different from a well run course with a different demographic. The "touchy feely" "lets have fun" and "how do you feel about you skills today" approach to rider training may appeal to some students however it is not central to the mastery of the skills and knowledge necessary to ride a motorcycle safely.
A "macho" or a "feminine" approach to instruction will not matter one whit when it comes to the "brutal reality" of riding a motorcycle in traffic if there is a crash. Not many instructors take the time to ask a student whom they had in a class, whom passed and got their license waiver and then went on to an "unsuccessful" riding experience "How do you feel about your riding skills today" and "How do you like the look of your leg after your surgery" and "What may I have done differently".
Instructors, teach your students well, and as for the rest of it, there are far more significant things to be concerned about than "women only classes". Not that any of this matters much in the real world where opinion and expediency seem to trump reality with greater and greater frequency with each passing day. |
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haithabu
Standard Member
235 Posts
Canmore, Alberta
Canada
Honda
Varadero
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 9:34 AM
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It seems to me that this thread is more about one's attitude towards certain social trends than it has to do with motorcycle safety.
Colour me gallant, but I agree with Chicka-dee. I can't comment about state-sponsored courses, but otherwise it's a free market out there, and if enough woman want a gender specific motorcycle training course, then someone will inevitably supply it. And if it works for the students, so much the better. The whole point of the training is to impart objective skills by the most effective means possible.
Along the same line, Toronto is considering a boy's-only high school to counteract the rising male dropout rate and decreasing ratio of men enrolled at university level. That's a good idea too, if it works.
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bkikkert
Advanced Member
817 Posts
[Mentor]
Cornwall, Ontario
Canada
Harley-Davidson
Ultra Classic '08
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 4:21 PM
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quote:
enough woman want a gender specific motorcycle training course, then someone will inevitably supply it.
So if enough men want a men only course, then someone will supply that also. Yeh...right, and wait for the cries of discrimination as already intimated by JRD.
Incidentally, I think the boys only school is a big mistake. Boys are going to have to deal with a lot of women colleagues and bosses out there in the real world so if they are intimidated now.......... |
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haithabu
Standard Member
235 Posts
Canmore, Alberta
Canada
Honda
Varadero
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 5:09 PM
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The boys' school....not so much a matter of being intimidated by females as having a different learning style than girls. It's not so much matter of being less able to learn as that they are differently motivated. IMO boys/men are motivated above all by competition with and validation from other males. For that reason I think boys tend to do better in a boot campy, rules-based environment where a male role model inculcates a positive peer pressure for learning achievement.
But where there is no male challenge or discipline as in the current school system they lose interest quickly. Then they'll either meet that need in sports or in stupidly dangerous competition on sports bikes.
Just my C$0.02. Sorry for the thread drift. |
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RHaynes
Junior Member
35 Posts
Dudley, MA
USA
Yamaha
96 Virago 750
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Posted - 11/10/2009 : 1:14 PM
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I have to say that I disagree with the concept of creating an all-female class, designed to be such so as to 'save' women from being intimidated by men.
We are learning to operate a missile, one that has a vastly different power:weight ratio from a car and is a completely new animal. There is a certain degree of 'unintimidatable' (if that's a word...) that goes with piloting these.
If one is intimidated by boisterous persons of the opposite gender in a class scenario, I do not want to share the road with them at 30, or 60, when something intimidates them.
And I don't want anyone passing me to be apprehensive that maybe I might feel intimidated.
Now, if you're going to say that your religious based rules of modesty or morality decree it improper for a group of females to be with a male for extended periods of time and provide this instruction in a private setting, I have no issue. Just because I don't live by those rules that way doesn't mean you (very, VERY generic 'you') shouldn't if those rules are right to you.
But I do not think such 'accomodations' should be made in a publically offered or endorsed course. |
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Baggsy
Advanced Member
662 Posts
[Mentor]
Toronto, Ontario
Canada
Suzuki
09 Wee & 01 Concours
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Posted - 11/11/2009 : 12:36 PM
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I believe that the concept of this type of course is to allow a woman to attend a motorcycle class while not being intimidated by a particular man, without giving offense to said man.
i.e. The woman's behaviour would change depending on whether the significant other was there or not.
Maybe all of abnsmurf's classes should have a bevy of Hooter's girls posing nearby to weed out those who are detrimentally influenced by their presence. |
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