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gymnast
Moderator
2211 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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 Posted - 02/05/2009 : 2:18 PM
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Inceptor, "count on it that the insurance make money .....etc....
Bingo!
Insurance information is proprietary data and patient medical records are privileged information. It is possible to conduct research when access can be gained to such information however,in reality, access is both difficult to gain and rarely rarely granted except on an individual basis for purposes of conducting research for public or professional consumption. Information can be worth it's weight in gold and sometimes it takes a lot of gold to get it. |
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aidanspa
 Advanced Member
1165 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Harley-Davidson
Heritage Softail
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Posted - 02/05/2009 : 3:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gymnast
Do you think that the insurance industry should support research to provide definitive answers regarding the viability of motorcycle rider training as a crash and injury countermeasure?
Yes, I think they should because it is the "right" thing to do. Does it make financial sense for them to do so? No. Doing so will not increase premium flows, net revenues, nor stockholder dividends.
Just as MSF is required (by law) to do only that which will promote and benefit the manufacturers it represents, so too are insurance companies required as corporations (by law) to do only that which benefits their stockholders.
So, we might as well say it out loud. Insurance companies will not be helpful in any efforts to positively influence the MIC-MSF curriculum, etc., since they are 1) members in good standing of MIC, and 2) required to do only that which benefits their stockholders.
Consequently, we have insurance companies sponsoring race teams (marketing), fund raising events (marketing), discounts to MSF graduates & instructors (marketing), etc. All things designed, in the long run, to increase revenues. That's business, and I get it.
Unless I have it wrong. |
Edited by - aidanspa on 02/05/2009 3:31 PM |
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inceptor
Ex-Member
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Posted - 02/05/2009 : 7:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by aidanspaJust as MSF is required (by law) to do only that which will promote and benefit the manufacturers it represents, so too are insurance companies required as corporations (by law) to do only that which benefits their stockholders.
Unless I have it wrong.
The purpose of laws is to minimize excesses but they can't cover every possibility. In the mean time the moral bedrock of insurance companies and motorcycle foundations appears to be public opinion. Not a high standard. It's hard for the public to express itself because the particular hazards of riding are NOT intuitively obvious and difficult to describe even if you ride and even when you know what some of them are.
The riding community is no help because riding is addictive. I've noticed riders can exhibit patterns of thinking typical of addiction, including being touchy about discussing anything that might interfere with free, unlimited access to their fix. When people who ride are put in charge of finding solutions you can be just about certain they will come up empty because they won't consider anything that might reflect on their own riding.
It's a perfect moral gridlock. Everybody cares, nobody is responsible. The definition of a ghetto is a place where people blame everyone but themselves. |
Edited by - inceptor on 02/05/2009 8:01 PM |
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gymnast
Moderator
2211 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 02/05/2009 : 10:27 PM
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Inceptor, good points and I see your frustration. One thing that should be made clear though, is that the Motorcycle Safety Foundation is not a foundation in the common sense of the word. It is not even an 11 501 3c non profit. It is an 11 501 6c industry trade and lobbying group and a sister organization of the Motorcycle Industry Council which set it up to serve various purposes under it's 11 501 6c charter which allows certain tax advantages for dollars the industry provides to support it.
If you look to the upper right side of the screen where it says "All Things Motorcycle"-(Member Map), you will find (private Messages) and you will that you have a message.
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inceptor
Ex-Member
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Posted - 02/06/2009 : 6:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gymnast
Inceptor, good points and I see your frustration. One thing that should be made clear though, is that the Motorcycle Safety Foundation is not a foundation in the common sense of the word. It is not even an 11 501 3c non profit. It is an 11 501 6c industry trade and lobbying group and a sister organization of the Motorcycle Industry Council which set it up to serve various purposes under it's 11 501 6c charter which allows certain tax advantages for dollars the industry provides to support it.
I'm aware of MSF's form of organization. It's deceptive to have the word foundation in the name. To promote the confusion there is a tax exempt foundation, entirely separate from the MSF, whose name they like to mention.
Another way insurance may be part of the problem is the cost of liability coverage for instructors who are not affiliated with the MSF compared to the instructors who are. I don't know what non MSF motorcycle instructors or schools find when they shop for coverage but perhaps this issue has marginalized a lot of the people who would like to offer alternatives. If this is a problem it might be solved with legislation. The MSF needs competition. It is unhealthy to have only one school of thought.
quote:
If you look to the upper right side of the screen where it says "All Things Motorcycle"-(Member Map), you will find (private Messages) and you will that you have a message.
I don't see any private messages. I'd rather keep all the discussion here. |
Edited by - inceptor on 02/06/2009 12:50 PM |
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Night Train
Moderator
942 Posts
[Mentor]
Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada
Harley-Davidson
Softail and Touring
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Posted - 02/06/2009 : 2:19 PM
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| I took the liberty of starting a new topic "Possible Conflicts within the MSF" and moved the last two posts there. Any further discussion relating to the MSF should be made in that thread or the "Possible Changes to the MSF Course",or alternately start another related thread. This Forum has touched upon a number of issues and if we can keep them separated and cataloged in some semblance of order, it will be easier to review at a later date. No doubt with the information being discussed, the new topic will become a "hot topic" as well. I don't intend on quelling the discussion, just trying to keep it in perspective. |
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steven7
Ex-Member
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Posted - 03/06/2009 : 9:43 PM
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Hi,
This is Steven. I am new member to this site. I really very happy to see this site. And at the same time any information about the Auto Insurance please visit this site.
===========================
steven7
Steven, normally I would have just deleted your post, but since it is your first, I've elected to keep it but deleted the link. There is no place for SPAM on this site and the offering of Insurance Quotes is off topic. Next time, your post will be deleted without the benefit of explanation. |
Edited by - Night Train on 03/06/2009 11:28 PM |
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LCardo
Starting Member
5 Posts
Mentor, OH
USA
BMW
K1200GT
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Posted - 03/10/2009 : 2:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gymnast
Many of the insurance companies that one sees advertising motorcycles coverage (as well as coverage for you car, boat, RV, and such) are members of the MIC (Motorcycle Industry Council). I have noticed that while these companies use intake from the customers premium dollars to sponsor motorcycle race events (progressive) and motorcycle racing teams (Geico), they are virtually invisible when it comes to sponsoring motorcycle safety research and accident and injury counter measure development.
Dr Haddon is long gone from the IIHS and many of the same companies that are IIHS members are also MIC members. Sadly, the insurance industry, like the motorcycle industry appears to be far more interested in the public relations aspects of appearing concerned about motorcycle crashes than having a positive influence on their reduction.
What do you think?
I am a little confused. It appears that you believe the insurance companies and their associations are or should be responsible for improving MC safety--and are negligent in this responsibility?
Insurance companies are for profit businesses. Their goal is to maximize profits--not be a do gooder. If they sponsor races, that is part of their marketing strategy of which they hope to get a return on that investment. They are under NO obligation to promote MC safety.
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gymnast
Moderator
2211 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 03/10/2009 : 4:19 PM
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| LCardo, are you familiar with the relationship between the MSF and the MIC? |
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Night Train
Moderator
942 Posts
[Mentor]
Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada
Harley-Davidson
Softail and Touring
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Posted - 03/10/2009 : 6:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by LCardo
I am a little confused. It appears that you believe the insurance companies and their associations are or should be responsible for improving MC safety--and are negligent in this responsibility?
Insurance companies are for profit businesses. Their goal is to maximize profits--not be a do gooder. If they sponsor races, that is part of their marketing strategy of which they hope to get a return on that investment. They are under NO obligation to promote MC safety.
Although I agree that Insurance Companies are for profit businesses, their profits are directly affected by the participation (premiums) of the consumer. Losses affect the profit margin for the Insurers and for the most part they can simply just keep upping the price of the premiums to compensate. Sooner or later, they will become an unaffordable commodity in many circles. It is not a matter of being a "do-gooder" or having a social conscience, it is plain and simply a matter of good business sense to promote Motorcycle Safety, and other Safety related programs that would assist in the reduction of losses, thereby reducing claims, thereby retarding the escalation of premiums, making them more affordable for the masses and allow them to be more competitive. The Insurance Industry has been wielding power in many areas to affect changes in Government Legislation to improve their profit margins. In the Province where I live, the Insurance Industry lobbied the Government saying they were losing millions on Auto Insurance and one of the main reasons was Soft Tissue Injury Awards (i.e. Whiplash). Consequently our Province and one or two neighboring Provinces swallowed this hog wash and introduced Legislation placing a cap of $2500.00 on soft tissue injuries. Six months later the Profit statement came out for the Insurance Industry in Canada and showed a whopping profit in the Billions of dollars. My point is that if they wield that much power over Government, they could have a positive influence on the promotion of Motorcycle Safety Programs and other Safety related Programs that would result in the affects that I alluded to earlier.
As a footnote, I worked in the General Insurance Claims field for 20 years and have witnessed many changes in the Industry. Some for the better, but in recent years, the changes have been for the worse and public perception of the Industry is at an all time low and it is rightly deserved. |
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LCardo
Starting Member
5 Posts
Mentor, OH
USA
BMW
K1200GT
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Posted - 03/10/2009 : 6:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gymnast
LCardo, are you familiar with the relationship between the MSF and the MIC?
Gymnast, I am familiar with the information that you posted. |
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LCardo
Starting Member
5 Posts
Mentor, OH
USA
BMW
K1200GT
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Posted - 03/10/2009 : 7:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Night Train
quote:
Originally posted by LCardo
I am a little confused. It appears that you believe the insurance companies and their associations are or should be responsible for improving MC safety--and are negligent in this responsibility?
Insurance companies are for profit businesses. Their goal is to maximize profits--not be a do gooder. If they sponsor races, that is part of their marketing strategy of which they hope to get a return on that investment. They are under NO obligation to promote MC safety.
Although I agree that Insurance Companies are for profit businesses, their profits are directly affected by the participation (premiums) of the consumer. Losses affect the profit margin for the Insurers and for the most part they can simply just keep upping the price of the premiums to compensate. Sooner or later, they will become an unaffordable commodity in many circles. It is not a matter of being a "do-gooder" or having a social conscience, it is plain and simply a matter of good business sense to promote Motorcycle Safety, and other Safety related programs that would assist in the reduction of losses, thereby reducing claims, thereby retarding the escalation of premiums, making them more affordable for the masses and allow them to be more competitive. The Insurance Industry has been wielding power in many areas to affect changes in Government Legislation to improve their profit margins. In the Province where I live, the Insurance Industry lobbied the Government saying they were losing millions on Auto Insurance and one of the main reasons was Soft Tissue Injury Awards (i.e. Whiplash). Consequently our Province and one or two neighboring Provinces swallowed this hog wash and introduced Legislation placing a cap of $2500.00 on soft tissue injuries. Six months later the Profit statement came out for the Insurance Industry in Canada and showed a whopping profit in the Billions of dollars. My point is that if they wield that much power over Government, they could have a positive influence on the promotion of Motorcycle Safety Programs and other Safety related Programs that would result in the affects that I alluded to earlier.
As a footnote, I worked in the General Insurance Claims field for 20 years and have witnessed many changes in the Industry. Some for the better, but in recent years, the changes have been for the worse and public perception of the Industry is at an all time low and it is rightly deserved.
Insurance companies have tremendous power as you indicated--they are in a position to direct Governments to increase their profits. Because of their power, they could, if they desire, have a positive influence on MC safety. Or feed hungry children in Africa. Getting insurance companies to assist in MC safety might be similar to getting oil companies to help.
I agree it is a worthy goal, but I cannot a mechanism to cause it to happen?
I hope to utilize the insurance companies to assist in improving our unsafe highways by acquiring costs of unsafe conditions. Thinking this would be a win-win situation, by reducing MC accidents (we benefit) and reducing insurance payments (they benefit).
Details at MCRoadSafety.com.
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gymnast
Moderator
2211 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 03/10/2009 : 7:10 PM
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| Lcardo, then I see no reason for you to be confused. |
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Daddio
Senior Member
357 Posts
[Mentor]
Calera, AL
USA
Suzuki
Bandit 1250
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Posted - 03/10/2009 : 8:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by LCardo
I am a little confused. It appears that you believe the insurance companies and their associations are or should be responsible for improving MC safety--and are negligent in this responsibility?
Insurance companies are for profit businesses. Their goal is to maximize profits--not be a do gooder. If they sponsor races, that is part of their marketing strategy of which they hope to get a return on that investment. They are under NO obligation to promote MC safety.
Originally posted by Night Train
Although I agree that Insurance Companies are for profit businesses, their profits are directly affected by the participation (premiums) of the consumer. Losses affect the profit margin for the Insurers and for the most part they can simply just keep upping the price of the premiums to compensate. Sooner or later, they will become an unaffordable commodity in many circles. It is not a matter of being a "do-gooder" or having a social conscience, it is plain and simply a matter of good business sense to promote Motorcycle Safety, and other Safety related programs that would assist in the reduction of losses, thereby reducing claims, thereby retarding the escalation of premiums, making them more affordable for the masses and allow them to be more competitive. The Insurance Industry has been wielding power in many areas to affect changes in Government Legislation to improve their profit margins. In the Province where I live, the Insurance Industry lobbied the Government saying they were losing millions on Auto Insurance and one of the main reasons was Soft Tissue Injury Awards (i.e. Whiplash). Consequently our Province and one or two neighboring Provinces swallowed this hog wash and introduced Legislation placing a cap of $2500.00 on soft tissue injuries. Six months later the Profit statement came out for the Insurance Industry in Canada and showed a whopping profit in the Billions of dollars. My point is that if they wield that much power over Government, they could have a positive influence on the promotion of Motorcycle Safety Programs and other Safety related Programs that would result in the affects that I alluded to earlier.
As a footnote, I worked in the General Insurance Claims field for 20 years and have witnessed many changes in the Industry. Some for the better, but in recent years, the changes have been for the worse and public perception of the Industry is at an all time low and it is rightly deserved.
When I read LCardo's post this afternoon I was planning a response much along the way Night Train did. I think Night Train's perspective is spot on target.
I did want to add that protecting your current customers makes good business sense. It is much easier to keep a current customer than create a new one. A motorcyclist that is severely injured in an accident is not likely to renew his policy for at least quite some time, if ever. A rider that is killed in an accident will never renew his policy. I think it is one of the easiest ways that "Big Insurance" can show it is trying to do the right thing.
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LCardo
Starting Member
5 Posts
Mentor, OH
USA
BMW
K1200GT
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Posted - 03/10/2009 : 9:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Daddio
quote:
Originally posted by LCardo
I am a little confused. It appears that you believe the insurance companies and their associations are or should be responsible for improving MC safety--and are negligent in this responsibility?
Insurance companies are for profit businesses. Their goal is to maximize profits--not be a do gooder. If they sponsor races, that is part of their marketing strategy of which they hope to get a return on that investment. They are under NO obligation to promote MC safety.
Originally posted by Night Train
Although I agree that Insurance Companies are for profit businesses, their profits are directly affected by the participation (premiums) of the consumer. Losses affect the profit margin for the Insurers and for the most part they can simply just keep upping the price of the premiums to compensate. Sooner or later, they will become an unaffordable commodity in many circles. It is not a matter of being a "do-gooder" or having a social conscience, it is plain and simply a matter of good business sense to promote Motorcycle Safety, and other Safety related programs that would assist in the reduction of losses, thereby reducing claims, thereby retarding the escalation of premiums, making them more affordable for the masses and allow them to be more competitive. The Insurance Industry has been wielding power in many areas to affect changes in Government Legislation to improve their profit margins. In the Province where I live, the Insurance Industry lobbied the Government saying they were losing millions on Auto Insurance and one of the main reasons was Soft Tissue Injury Awards (i.e. Whiplash). Consequently our Province and one or two neighboring Provinces swallowed this hog wash and introduced Legislation placing a cap of $2500.00 on soft tissue injuries. Six months later the Profit statement came out for the Insurance Industry in Canada and showed a whopping profit in the Billions of dollars. My point is that if they wield that much power over Government, they could have a positive influence on the promotion of Motorcycle Safety Programs and other Safety related Programs that would result in the affects that I alluded to earlier.
As a footnote, I worked in the General Insurance Claims field for 20 years and have witnessed many changes in the Industry. Some for the better, but in recent years, the changes have been for the worse and public perception of the Industry is at an all time low and it is rightly deserved.
When I read LCardo's post this afternoon I was planning a response much along the way Night Train did. I think Night Train's perspective is spot on target.
I did want to add that protecting your current customers makes good business sense. It is much easier to keep a current customer than create a new one. A motorcyclist that is severely injured in an accident is not likely to renew his policy for at least quite some time, if ever. A rider that is killed in an accident will never renew his policy. I think it is one of the easiest ways that "Big Insurance" can show it is trying to do the right thing.
Nicely said!! I totally agree.
LCardo |
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SkootchNC
Senior Member
326 Posts
[Mentor]
raleigh, north carolina
USA
Harley-Davidson
road glide
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Posted - 03/11/2009 : 7:38 AM
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I believe it is in Insurance industry's best SELF-interest to promote rider training and education, as well as driver education across the board.
1) the cost to educate would be less that the cost to continue paying out on claims
2)as the cost of claims decrease, the profits from premiums increase
3)"good works" is a wonderful advertisement
the best "public relations" event, would be keeping the public alive and paying those premiums |
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Could insurance Companies be part of the problem?